Can I do some extra freelance work for the company I work for?

[eggsarascal]

6 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

I don’t think he’s listening Eggs.

I think you are right, Mate. 

[Paddy1000111]

3 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

I think you are right, Mate. 

I've just had a lot of experience with employment contracts and subcontractors. You may be right and there may be a god given right that if you wear someone's company shirts and have a "boss" for the day that you're automatically insured no matter what the insurance documents say. 

 

I've seen a lot of guys make some big f*** ups and lose a lot of money through not reading the fine print and not having the correct paperwork in place. Be it guys who have made £500k mistakes or guys who ended up being investigated for tax and paying out over 140k in back taxes. The OP asked if he can subcontract to his employer whilst working for him too. Under IR35 this is illegal, no two ways about it, the employer is making him a disguised employee to save on tax filing and expenses. Other than IR35 he needs to make sure his employers insurance covers him as an external subcontractor. Just trying to save the guy getting shafted.

[AHPP]

Since this thread is already ruined, I’ll further confuse matters by pointing out there are only three kinds of statutorily mandatory insurance: car, employers’ liability and some finance thing I’ve not looked up properly. Apart from those, you don’t have to have third party liability insurance unless you bind yourself to needing it contractually. Also consider that third party liability (whether insured for or indemnified for) can be assigned to someone other than who would have it by default.

 

Hand grenade over shoulder, exit through audience not giving a fvck.

 

 

 

 

[Mark Bolam]

Paddy this last bit makes a lot more sense.

Sounds dodgy as hell.

[Marc Lewis]

Yes, self employed freelancer. If I work in Mrs Miggins garden (my own job) I need insurance. If I'm in the same garden working with your men I'm a freelancer working under your instruction covered under your insurance.

Bang on Eggs, that explains s it very well and how i understand it from what my insurance company told me.

[Rich Rule]

21 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

No reason why not but you will need insurance/public liability etc. That will be even more expensive as a sole trader than a ltd company. You will also need to be registered for self assessment tax. Make sure the extra he is paying you covers the costs. People hear the connie prices but don't understand the connie costs... 

No he won’t.

 

Freelance isn’t a bona Fide Subcontractor basis.  
 

Therefore, he will be classed as a labour only.  Covered by their insurance etc.  
 

Probably wise to have I come protection but is it worth it for the few days freelancing ???

[Paddy1000111]

9 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

No he won’t.

 

Freelance isn’t a bona Fide Subcontractor basis.  
 

Therefore, he will be classed as a labour only.  Covered by there insurance etc.  
 

Probably wise to have I come protection but is it worth it for the few days freelancing ???

It's down to him, my point with all of this is under the IR35 law there is no such thing as freelance anymore. There used to be and I did it for years but under the law it is illegal. You might have a couple of months and then you will need to replan it. With the "freelancer" position being made, under law, illegal the insurance companies and their underwriters will remove freelancing from insurance as it's an illegal position. 

 

Realistically, if "bobs trees" wants help for a day then it's still going to happen and it's down to you how you work it money wise. There isn't a time limit on IR35 saying that if you work for a company for under a week or something then you're golden. 

 

IR35 stops freelancing and contract labour, making it illegal. Don't argue with me, argue with HMRC and that C*** Rishi. He has ruined a very busy contract industry which is going to cause a lot of stress and remove a lot of flexibility for small companies all in the name of getting some extra tax by stopping independent contractors or freelancers or whatever you want to call them from claiming expenses. 

[Rich Rule]

I was responding to your instruction that he needed insurance, not tax.

 

I worked as a contract climber for over 10 years in the UK.

 

In the early days I had PL insurance.  Which the company gladly charged me for even though I told them the capacity I worked.  One day a roof on a garage collapsed when I was moving some plywood.  They tried to make the Main contractor pay for the rebuild of nine new garages.  The reason we were there was to remove a large pine that had lifted in the wind and cracked the walls of the garages etc.

 

The main contractor insurer wanted to claim on my insurance, to which mine simply refused as I was to be covered by the main Contractor insurer.

 

The egg was on their face though as both insurance policies were by the same company.  

 

250 quid and a report from a building surveyor, proved we had nothing to do with the shifting of the walls and threw the claim out due to previous damage.

 

The detail is the key and it has been done to death on here.  Don’t call yourself a subbie, contract climber or something else...  anything but subbie.

 

As for Ir35..?  No idea as I don’t live or work in the UK anymore.  I got out as I was sick of all the bullshit.

 

By the way, this isn’t fixing planes.  So the scenarios you describe are very different to tree work.

 

Why did you leave the aviation industry to chop trees?  Surely it wasn’t for the money.

[Paddy1000111]

Maybe I should have worded it differently and said to check his insurance not buy it blindly. 

 

The aircraft contract industry from the most part is no different. If you are a "freelancer" you turn up in the morning wearing clothes and carrying a coffee. You are told what to do, where to go and what needs to be done. No different to "freelance" tree work, you turn up in the morning and get told the plan for the day and you do the work you're needed for. 

 

I've talked about the shift before;

I've always done some tree work on weekends, summers when I fancied a break from slogging my arse off in a cargo hold etc. It's something I've always loved doing from when I was a young lad working with my old man on the smallholding. 

 

When this virus hit (around March) the aviation industry started lagging, flights started getting cancelled and things got, shall I say squeeky. It had a whole 9/11 feel about it. Most of the contractors at the company I was working for got laid off and I was left hiding in the background doing odd jobs. I was at that company until the last day where the bosses came down and said that the company was collapsing and there may not be work tomorrow. That night I sat in the pub watching the last of their planes land and the next day I went in, listened to the speech with all the other employees by the administration company and helped employees carry toolboxes to the car. 

I made my money moving about the UK and abroad doing repairs. Everything from putting seats and interior trim on private jets in the UK to replacing engines on Airbus' in the snow in latvia. This year the industry has crashed, not just do companies not have the work but they are laying off people left right and centre which compounded the issue even more. I was getting good money before but with more and more guys getting laid off there were tonnes of blokes who turned to freelancing and companies popped up all over offering cheaper and cheaper services due to people being desperate for work. The last contract I got offered was in Scotland in April/May this year. They offered £9.10 an hour, I laughed, hung up and then nearly cried 😂.

The other issue with the aviation industry is IR35. It was originally coming in April this year and IR35 basically means that you can't be a freelancer or contract labourer anymore. HMRC and Rishi Sunak basically wanted to stop people working for companies as an employee but being paid as an independent contractor as they wouldn't have to pay as much tax, NI etc etc. I was working with a group of guys and the companies just before the aviation crash to get around IR35. By providing our own tools, wearing our own logos, invoicing directly as opposed to being paid each week based on hours like an employee and having our own insurance we finally got around IR35 and the employment law solicitors/HR teams etc agreed that we would be able to carry on contracting. The other option was that we would become employees of the company on PAYE with a 0 hour contract. 

The final issue with aircraft work was being away all the time. I got fed up with missing birthdays, holidays, friends weddings etc. I was always at work. I took a look around me at some of the other guys, all divorced 2-3 times, borderline alcoholics, taking meds for depression and spending all their cash in foreign strip clubs and I don't want that as my future. I grew up working on a farm, I like my family and whilst the money was good, it wasn't good enough to ruin a life for. 

 

I like tree work, there's something about being in the pouring rain and then returning to a nice log fire that I love. No industry is perfect but the money isn't bad, the hours are good and I enjoy it. What more could I ask for. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Paddy1000111

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Paddy1000111 said:

The final issue with aircraft work was being away all the time. I got fed up with missing birthdays, holidays, friends weddings etc. I was always at work. I took a look around me at some of the other guys, all divorced 2-3 times, borderline alcoholics, taking meds for depression and spending all their cash in foreign strip clubs and I don't want that as my future. I grew up working on a farm, I like my family and I whilst the money was good, it wasn't good enough to ruin a life for. 

I know that life very well.