Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[Big J]

8 minutes ago, Mull said:

 

 

Mostly you talk perfect sense Andy, although you often do it in an ‘absolute tosser’ sort of fashion.
 

 

 

 

Hahaha! He just needs  a good PR person! ?

 

22 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

Its a bit of a mish-mash but Ive got a baby on my lap and cant quite concentrate.  

It is a complex industry with so many support industries supporting it. I can imagine there is similarities between them, my old man was a Tree Surgeon (his words) so I have a small insight into your world. 

 

I think an independent Scotland under the SNP would squander the reserves in much the same way as Westminster, just in different ways. The SNP have touted the way Norway works as an independent country yet they dont seem to be remotely interested in emulating anything they do over there.  One point comes to mind, as Im getting it in a few days; we dont have a child minder or put our 23 month old to nursery so the Norwegian government are thankful that we are not a drain on the state funded positions and give me £750 a month for 11 months.   We applied in March and its just been approved. so we'll get all 11 months tax free in one go.  Can you imagine the SNP ever giving someone above whatever threshold they come up with anything like that back to those that pay the most in tax? 

 

I agree with your assessment, in general the Scottish mindset is gimmie gimme gimmie. We feel we deserve it, regardless if we've worked for it. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, if no one obvious is to blame it must be the English or Westminster holding us down.   The sense of entitlement of those with little or nothing to offer is staggering. 

 

If Scotland did follow the Norwegian model, and did so accurately then yes, Scotland could be a fairer and more prosperous country than it is today. It would take a long time to change the mindset of the average Scot though. Some 'right wing' standards would need put in place to get people out of the gutter of self entitlement. There would be a huge uproar over this. Ive said it before but Norway has some very stringent rules/regulations/laws that would be seen as outright right-wing.  So I just cant see any Scottish Government adopting them, because they would lose the vast majority of their sponger voter base. 

 

So we get our oil and whiskey back? Great, we'll still blow it quicker than a smackhead on benefits day. Then like a Smackhead we'll look for someone to blame. But I think if independence is worth perusing then a period of going 'cold Turkey' is needed. We really do need a massive step-change in our collective mindset and a huge slap in the face to wake ourselves up. Norway has conscription into the Armed Forces. It really changes the youth for the good. Ive seen apprentices leave as little boys and in two years return as strong men. The Government guarantee they can return to their job. If they have a mortgage thats put on hold till they come back to the workforce. There is just so many reasons why Norway works and Scotland would not. Not at first anyway, maybe in 50 years?  I still think its a worthy dream though, but under the SNP and yoked to the EU? Categorically no. 

Again, very interesting, and I agree with pretty much all of it. The Norwegian model is a sort of ultra capitalist socialist system where you have tremendous government support so long as you are prepared to contribute. I agree with this principle. 

 

I fundamentally just think that you ought to be able to get ahead in life if you are prepared to work for it. We don't have a good balance in that regard in the UK.

[stihlmadasever]

7 minutes ago, Mull said:

 

 

Yep, agree with that, a great leveller.
Quite expensive to taxpayer though.

 

 

Hmm...im unconvinced on the exact expense to the taxpayer.

What i am convinced of is the amount of tax we would have to pay across the board for the first 5 years to boost our economy.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Mull said:

 

 

Mostly you talk perfect sense Andy, although you often do it in an ‘absolute tosser’ sort of fashion.
Where do you see Scottish independence coming from if not through the vehicle of the snp?

 

 

Cheers Mull thats the nicest thing you've ever said to me.  

 

Good point, I dont see it coming any other way other than through the SNP. If there was another Party in Scotland offering real independence then it would dilute the vote and make it appear that less people in Scotland want independence and to remain in the EU. I do get that. 

 

But the SNP really should stick to getting independence then look at re-joining the EU. It should not be lumped into one. I know many in Scotland say to vote SNP, get independence then vote them out, but with whom? The political vacuum would last for years. If people think its bad with a Tory Majority I shudder to think what a hash those clowns would do wielding real power. Then to bring us our from the fireplace into the fire, swapping a Westminster yoke for a Brussels one, one that is clearly demonstrated with Brexit to be neigh on impossible of breaking free from, and when we do try we're publicly

ostracised by the block. If Scotland where to join, but then chose to leave in the future could Scotland face this barrage and intimidation from the EU? In my mind we'd be crushed to smithereens. We simply dont have have the econimic power that the UK. 

 . 

[trigger_andy]

23 minutes ago, Mull said:

 

 

Yep, agree with that, a great leveller.
Quite expensive to taxpayer though.

 

 

More so than having them on the Dole? Consider that many might no longer be on the dole after they leave, so future savings there. 

[Mull]

Cheers Mull thats the nicest thing you've ever said to me. [emoji3] 
 
Good point, I dont see it coming any other way other than through the SNP. If there was another Party in Scotland offering real independence then it would dilute the vote and make it appear that less people in Scotland want independence and to remain in the EU. I do get that. 
 
But the SNP really should stick to getting independence then look at re-joining the EU. It should not be lumped into one. I know many in Scotland say to vote SNP, get independence then vote them out, but with whom? The political vacuum would last for years. If people think its bad with a Tory Majority I shudder to think what a hash those clowns would do wielding real power. Then to bring us our from the fireplace into the fire, swapping a Westminster yoke for a Brussels one, one that is clearly demonstrated with Brexit to be neigh on impossible of breaking free from, and when we do try we're publicly
ostracised by the block. If Scotland where to join, but then chose to leave in the future could Scotland face this barrage and intimidation from the EU? In my mind we'd be crushed to smithereens. We simply dont have have the econimic power that the UK. 
 . 

You want independence, but you’ll never be able to vote for it?

[Johnsond]

3 hours ago, donnk said:

actually no. You dont have the oil its in the English north sea.

 

 

Scotland is a beggarly nation that has been a parasite to England for centuries, all you hear from jocks is how poor they are.

We should definitely allow you to sod off and go independent and of course you will not be able to use the English currency, print your own monopoly money. Let's not forget your share of the national debt, say 20% as there are not a lot of you frock wearers, thats £360 Billion sterling. Your annual pocket money is £33 bill a year from us so you dont need to be a rocket scientist to see how you are going to fare.

 

Probably best if you all just pipe down and say thanks a lot to every Englishman you meet.

 

 

??? Joke or serious either way poor poor taste bud 

That map you show is rather amateurish to say the least, mind you I’m still doubting wether you are serious or joking  

Edited December 24, 2019 by Johnsond

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Mull said:

 

You want independence, but you’ll never be able to vote for it?

 

Its a quandary is it not?  

 

But Ive more than qualified my stance and my reasons for not currently willing to vote for it. To highlight;

 

1, We've had a democratic vote, we chose to remain in the Union. I am as opposed to Indi#2 as I was to a second Brexit Vote.

2, I do not agree that independence from England yet joining the EU is any form of independence. 

3, Where we to get Independence under the SNP there would be a political vacuum that would not be filled giving them a free pass to run us into the ground. We'd end up as Pinko Commies. 

 

I think that about covers why.  

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Johnsond said:

??? Joke or serious either way poor poor taste bud 

Drunk I think? 

[Johnsond]

6 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Drunk I think? 

Must be totally wasted Andy or pissing around, surely not serious 

mind you he has left you the cream up North ?

Edited December 24, 2019 by Johnsond

[Mull]

Its a quandary is it not? [emoji14] 
 
But Ive more than qualified my stance and my reasons for not currently willing to vote for it. To highlight;
 
1, We've had a democratic vote, we chose to remain in the Union. I am as opposed to Indi#2 as I was to a second Brexit Vote.
2, I do not agree that independence from England yet joining the EU is any form of independence. 
3, Where we to get Independence under the SNP there would be a political vacuum that would not be filled giving them a free pass to run us into the ground. We'd end up as Pinko Commies. 
 
I think that about covers why. [emoji4] 

So you want independence
And all the benefits right away?