Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[Big J]

I don't envy anyone in Scotland now. As depressing as it is down here being on the wrong side of the political will of the people (for all that that is worth), at least it's only a single question being asked. 

 

In Scotland the situation is doubly intractable. An EU referendum where the overwhelming majority voted to remain (62:38) yet are being dragged out against their will. And then the complication of a looming Indy2 vote where I think it'll pass. 

 

And then couple that with the fact that some who voted to remain in the EU want Scottish Independence and some that voted out of the EU want to remain in the UK. And then some that want to leave both the UK and the EU and some that want to remain in both. And then that the tradional political parties don't necessarily represent everyone, or even a majority of anyone falling into the four camps listed above. 

 

It's perhaps no more of a mess than what we have in England presently. But it certainly seems like a more complicated and lengthy endevour to resolve.

[trigger_andy]

2 minutes ago, Big J said:

I don't envy anyone in Scotland now. As depressing as it is down here being on the wrong side of the political will of the people (for all that that is worth), at least it's only a single question being asked. 

 

In Scotland the situation is doubly intractable. An EU referendum where the overwhelming majority voted to remain (62:38) yet are being dragged out against their will. And then the complication of a looming Indy2 vote where I think it'll pass. 

 

And then couple that with the fact that some who voted to remain in the EU want Scottish Independence and some that voted out of the EU want to remain in the UK. And then some that want to leave both the UK and the EU and some that want to remain in both. And then that the tradional political parties don't necessarily represent everyone, or even a majority of anyone falling into the four camps listed above. 

 

It's perhaps no more of a mess than what we have in England presently. But it certainly seems like a more complicated and lengthy endevour to resolve.

To be honest I have not come into contact with anyone that really cares that much. About either Brexit nor Indi2 (which in my opinion would fail spectacularly.) It certainly is not something you feel or see in daily life. 

 

There is a couple of Scottish lads on the Platform Im working on just now. Funnily enough nether has come up in conversation, which is kinda weird. People are just indifferent to it now I think. 

 

Its always the empty bucket that sounds the loudest, I think its a case of a noisy minority making more of a racket and once again if there was an Indi2 then Yes would lose by an even bigger margin. I certainly will not be supporting it under the SNP. 

[Big J]

4 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

To be honest I have not come into contact with anyone that really cares that much. About either Brexit nor Indi2 (which in my opinion would fail spectacularly.) It certainly is not something you feel or see in daily life. 

 

There is a couple of Scottish lads on the Platform Im working on just now. Funnily enough nether has come up in conversation, which is kinda weird. People are just indifferent to it now I think. 

 

Its always the empty bucket that sounds the loudest, I think its a case of a noisy minority making more of a racket and once again if there was an Indi2 then Yes would lose by an even bigger margin. I certainly will not be supporting it under the SNP. 

 

Scotland has an uphill struggle if it wants to get Independence, and I don't have the foggiest idea how they'd achieve it. Land and wealth inequality is a huge issue (most unequal distribution in Western Europe, I believe) but you can't simply take it off the rich and give it to the poor (as the SNP have suggested). Wee Jimmy from the Scheme isn't going to know how to look after, or indeed care about 3000 acres of upland moor.

 

Scotland would certainly benefit from a dose of egalitarianism, but it's going to require a mindset shift from those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, whereby they take a lot more responsibility for their own actions and situation. Reducing their dependency on the State would be a good start.

[struie]

8 hours ago, agrimog said:

so, your willing to sucombe to the constant barage of lies and deceit we, as a nation has been fed for the last 300 years, or since the farsical so called union of parliaments, the first of the lies....the "great " union has only ever had one use for scotland, as a source of easy taxation  and to prop up the sweet homeland that surounds london, we are the only country in the world which has oil reserves, and food banks and child poverty, most of the oil revenue went into proping up the city of london and the home conties.....what did scotland get in return, to be guinea pigs for the poll tax,  come the elections on the 12thdec, we shall see what the feelings of the people of scotland are, till then its only theorys and polls, and funny how england has supported every other member of the great british comenwealth who saught independance, except for one, its cash cow

 

good on you agrimog,for touching on how it really was,and is,the english have been thrown out of 99% of the colonies,now its our turn.this country,  Scotland, has been brainwashed for far too long by the regime in london.India had the right answer to being suppressed for years.

[Big J]

8 hours ago, agrimog said:

so, your willing to sucombe to the constant barage of lies and deceit we, as a nation has been fed for the last 300 years, or since the farsical so called union of parliaments, the first of the lies....the "great " union has only ever had one use for scotland, as a source of easy taxation  and to prop up the sweet homeland that surounds london, we are the only country in the world which has oil reserves, and food banks and child poverty, most of the oil revenue went into proping up the city of london and the home conties.....what did scotland get in return, to be guinea pigs for the poll tax,  come the elections on the 12thdec, we shall see what the feelings of the people of scotland are, till then its only theorys and polls, and funny how england has supported every other member of the great british comenwealth who saught independance, except for one, its cash cow

 

 

4 minutes ago, struie said:

good on you agrimog,for touching on how it really was,and is,the english have been thrown out of 99% of the colonies,now its our turn.this country,  Scotland, has been brainwashed for far too long by the regime in london.India had the right answer to being suppressed for years.

 

Nutball, victim mentality opinions like these are probably the single largest hindrance to Scotland having any chance of being successfully independent. 

 

History is history and can't be changed. I could point out that Scotland bankrupted itself in the first instance due to foreign policy folly, and entered into the Union willingly and by self created necessity. But I won't point that out ?

 

The only thing that matters is the present and the future. Presently, Scotland's economic outlook is pretty grim on account of a State dependency. The budgetary deficit is 7 times higher than that of the rest fo the UK *

 

If Scotland wants to stand any chance of a bright Independent future, it needs to look inwards to address it's own, deep-seated socioeconomic issues, rather than simply casting the blame on those south of the border. I don't deny that historically, Scotland has had a raw deal, but that was 25-30 years ago now, and since then Scotland has had a better deal through the Barnett formula than the rest of the UK. 

 

I still think that Independence is totally unworkable, but with the Tory led clusterfuck that is English politics, I have more empathy for pro Scottish Independence voters than I used to.

 

* 

Scotland's deficit seven times higher than UK as a whole last year | UK news | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

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SNP says record spending gap of 7% of GDP proves need for independence

 

[David Cropper]

I've said it before, I honestly thing the average English person doesn't give a monkey's if Scotland goes on it's own. Can't speak for the Welsh as they have their own agenda on independence, don't even want to think about N.I,  but the general feeling in England would be, in my opinion, let em carry on and see how they manage. I understand why the Scots Nats think as they do, let's face it most Jocks have no love for the English because of the history of , as they see it, oppression of culture, language the Clearances et al. Before anyone rips into me, my wife is a Scot, although violently anti Independence,  and she has her anti English moments. She once told me that her Granny wouldn't allow her to watch Coronation St when it started as to quote Granny, " Those dirty English allow women in the pubs." Dirty English is often bandied about in moments of anger, without thinking. If Independence did happen would there be a need for a hard border, what currency would they have, plus all the other obstacles which would obviously cause concern. Would the Scottish Regiments have to leave the British Army, which would be a tragedy in my mind. The Jocks are always one of the first sent in, do more than their fair share to be sure. A mess in the making all round.

[agrimog]

Big J, I believe you are refering to the Darrien  Gap  fiasco in your quote, yes it nearly bankruptred scotland and was one of the factors leading to the union of parliaments, but as the union was never properly implemented, the terms werent followed as it was written and the whole thing wasdone to benifit england, its a bit one sided, how about when england was bankrupt and sold out the entire populaton on the international stock exchange of the time~(this is the reason birth certifcates were introduced, selling the entire population of the country into servitude) , nothing said about this, or the fact that scotland is the olny member of the union with a positive GDP, and actually sends more money south than it gets back despite what the media might want you to think......and as for our "shared debt" why should we pay for crossrail and the hst, it doesnt benifit scotland, actually it doesnt benifit most of england....omly the tory rich home counties, Ive done my reseach and looked at both sides and as I said all we've ever been is a cash cow, a sorce of cannon fodder for the military , and a place for rich aristocracy to have hunting estates, displacing thousands off the land......bring on independanceand all the benifits it will bring     saor alba

[Big J]

10 minutes ago, agrimog said:

Big J, I believe you are refering to the Darrien  Gap  fiasco in your quote, yes it nearly bankruptred scotland and was one of the factors leading to the union of parliaments, but as the union was never properly implemented, the terms werent followed as it was written and the whole thing wasdone to benifit england, its a bit one sided, how about when england was bankrupt and sold out the entire populaton on the international stock exchange of the time~(this is the reason birth certifcates were introduced, selling the entire population of the country into servitude) , nothing said about this, or the fact that scotland is the olny member of the union with a positive GDP, and actually sends more money south than it gets back despite what the media might want you to think......and as for our "shared debt" why should we pay for crossrail and the hst, it doesnt benifit scotland, actually it doesnt benifit most of england....omly the tory rich home counties, Ive done my reseach and looked at both sides and as I said all we've ever been is a cash cow, a sorce of cannon fodder for the military , and a place for rich aristocracy to have hunting estates, displacing thousands off the land......bring on independanceand all the benifits it will bring     saor alba

To an extent I agree. There are lots of projects in the rest of the UK that don't benefit Scotland, but equally, Scotland is a much more expensive country to run, with more extensive funding in a broad range of areas. As such, the rest of the UK subsidises Scotland.

 

If I were you, I'd forget the historic argument (it's irrelevant as the major historic injustices are now at least 25 years old), I'd forget the economic argument (because at present, there isn't one, with Scotland's budgetary deficit being huge) and I'd focus on the democratic deficit. The fact that Scotland voted to remain, yet is being forced to leave, the fact that the more socialist political landscape is contrary to the position of the Tory government that has been in power almost 10 years. 

 

Having lived both sides of the border in the past 18 months, there are big differences, but then no more than say the difference between Devon and Essex, or Newcastle and London. Scottish independence would be a disaster, but as I said, I have more empathy for the reasons behind wanting to leave.

[Mark Bolam]

4 hours ago, struie said:

good on you agrimog,for touching on how it really was,and is,the english have been thrown out of 99% of the colonies,now its our turn.this country,  Scotland, has been brainwashed for far too long by the regime in london.India had the right answer to being suppressed for years.

Is that the India we've just given £98m in foreign aid to?

[Johnsond]

SNP dragging Scotland towards independence would with the current track record of governance be a disaster. Cash cow !!!! I think not