Two Rope Working Consultation

[038AV]

On 26/08/2020 at 20:17, stewmo said:

 

And what if you cut one arm and miss the rope? How are you going to sort out 3 systems?

 

Disconnect flip line and one anchor point leaving whatever line you can descend faster and easier on and abseil down in my case that would be with my zigzag

[Pete Mctree]

27 minutes ago, 038AV said:

Disconnect flip line and one anchor point leaving whatever line you can descend faster and easier on and abseil down in my case that would be with my zigzag

Oh so simple when there is no pain, blood or adrenaline and your not hanging between two anchor points 

[038AV]

1 hour ago, Pete Mctree said:

Oh so simple when there is no pain, blood or adrenaline and your not hanging between two anchor points 

I learned by watching on one rope but only did my ticket this year on 2 ropes. Do I always use 2 rope and flip to move one....if I’m honest no I decide on a case by case Basis but I can promise using the two with the flip to use when disconnecting and moving one soon becomes second nature. It’s defo a pain in the tits though in a mega Ivy clad Tree if you can’t chuck your detached rope any distance  through the next crotch for ivy.

[038AV]

1 hour ago, Pete Mctree said:

Oh so simple when there is no pain, blood or adrenaline and your not hanging between two anchor points 

It also makes branch walks so much better ?

[ANK]

I’ve skimmed through the posts regarding using the Petzl ASAP as fall arrest system and was wondering where the user stands from a legal point of view when using it as it’s not technically designed for tree work.

 

I’m aware that it needs to be used with a shock absorbing lanyard and attached to a sternal or dorsal point on a fall arrest harness but is that enough to make it a suitable option for tree work? 
 

Im asking this because I’ve recently been using it at work and found it to be an excellent solution for climbing with two lines. However, last week I was told from one of the office staff I can’t use it anymore as it’s not designed for tree work. 
 
At first I accepted it and thought it’s just something I’ll have to deal with, but the more I’ve looked into it the more I see it doesn’t seem to be as clear cut as I first thought with many arb suppliers selling the ASAP and ASAP lock as “acceptable devices for a second line in tree work”.
 

If anyone could shed some light on this issue and let me know one way or the other that would be great!

 

Thanks in advance.

[Jamie Jones]

1 hour ago, ANK said:

I’ve skimmed through the posts regarding using the Petzl ASAP as fall arrest system and was wondering where the user stands from a legal point of view when using it as it’s not technically designed for tree work.

 

I’m aware that it needs to be used with a shock absorbing lanyard and attached to a sternal or dorsal point on a fall arrest harness but is that enough to make it a suitable option for tree work? 
 

Im asking this because I’ve recently been using it at work and found it to be an excellent solution for climbing with two lines. However, last week I was told from one of the office staff I can’t use it anymore as it’s not designed for tree work. 
 
At first I accepted it and thought it’s just something I’ll have to deal with, but the more I’ve looked into it the more I see it doesn’t seem to be as clear cut as I first thought with many arb suppliers selling the ASAP and ASAP lock as “acceptable devices for a second line in tree work”.
 

If anyone could shed some light on this issue and let me know one way or the other that would be great!

 

Thanks in advance.

Why don't you email Petzl for clarification. As they will be able to answer your question far better than most people.
You could also ask a major UK company like Honey Brothers to see if they can offer clarification as well from a UK/EU perspective.

Fully explain the case that your company representative has put forward as to why they say you can't use it to help get a response that knocks down the argument.
I used a Petzl ZigZag for all my climbing courses and assessments. You have to use suitable equipment (Which I take to mean industry approved and recognised) as part if the criteria. So if a ZigZag is not approved technically you can't pass the exam.

[ANK]

Cheers Jamie.

I’m in dialogue with arb suppliers currently and will be contacting Petzl directly, although not sure of the best person to speak to yet.

As you say, they will likely give the best clarification. I’m aware that they will likely come back with it not being suitable for tree work as it hasn’t been tried and tested in that environment and they will have to cover themselves.

But I know there are plenty of people on here with experience and insight into these things and may have even come across this question already. 

[Rich Rule]

Ank, how long have you been climbing and how long has the person who said you can’t use it been climbing?

 

What are they suggesting for a acceptable solution to the problem?

 

 

 

 

[ANK]

24 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

Ank, how long have you been climbing and how long has the person who said you can’t use it been climbing?

 

What are they suggesting for a acceptable solution to the problem?

 

 

 

 

Hey Rich,

 

I’ve been climbing for over 11 years now with the last year moving over to working from two ropes. 
I don’t mind working from two ropes and I’m not trying to prove the guy at my company wrong at all. I respect what he says, but this is new ground for all of us and views seem to differ on what constitutes a second system and what equipment is “allowable”. 
A good example is that in the new arb association handbook it says that a fall arrest system that follows the user is an acceptable option for a second system. But I’ve yet to find a fall arrest device that a manufacturer will say can be used for tree work. The DMM buddy and ISC rocker are both no no’s and so is the ASAP potentially. But whoever wrote the book must have an idea of what could be used I’d assume? 
 

The only “legitimate” solution in the company so far is two separate systems but as anyone who has tried using two devices it is often almost unworkable. 
 

People are also using a loosely tied VT with a hitch climber on a single line that moves with the user like a fall arrest device. But for it move up and down freely the knot has to be so loose it wouldn’t bite unless it was set anyway. So if a climber cut their primary line or had an anchor failure it wouldn’t provide any safety for them anyway. 

[Jamie Jones]

2 hours ago, ANK said:

Cheers Jamie.

I’m in dialogue with arb suppliers currently and will be contacting Petzl directly, although not sure of the best person to speak to yet.

As you say, they will likely give the best clarification. I’m aware that they will likely come back with it not being suitable for tree work as it hasn’t been tried and tested in that environment and they will have to cover themselves.

But I know there are plenty of people on here with experience and insight into these things and may have even come across this question already. 

I would guess that Honey Brothers could well answer the question and might know all the answers you need. You will need to talk to one of their key technical people.
If it is correct that the ZigZag is not approved for tree work. They will know what actually is.
But the reality is the Whole H&S subject of regulations in the tree industry has been a minefield because we climb on a structure that is not regulated or accountable. That is why we are one of the last industry's to come under the spotlight.