Two Rope Working Consultation

[warren]

2 hours ago, scotspine1 said:

 

Pete, 

 

the Petzl Asap and other similar fall arrest devices are not the solution to the twin rope issue.   

 

The Asap doesn’t need to be attached to a dorsal attachment but that’s beside the point. 

 

The idea that you lock it off when work positioning and it suddenly becomes a work positioning device is dangerous. 

 

Warren is using his with an add on shock/energy absorber which is even worse when you stop to consider the ramifications of it suddenly releasing/activating when he’s using a big saw along a heavy lateral limb during a dismantle. 

 

 

That means you have to use it 100% of the time with the figure 8 in situ - thereby negating the fall arrest aspect of it and rendering it pointless as a shadowing secondary back up line. You’d be better going back to your wrench setup. 

 

 

 

Ok. Valid points and I'm not arguing with any of them. In answer tho...  the petzl asap and petzl asap lock are 2 different things, don't get them confused. I'm not suggesting they are the answer. They worked for me in a tree on Friday without issue. From reading this I feel you think that is my 1 and only working system. It's not. My primary will be the zz ddrt (less the retrieval ball) and a side strop. On stems I will be and have used the ddrt zz and 2 strops. Re fig 8 - that will sit on my harness until god forbid I need it. As regards work positioning on the 'lock' .. that's what it's designed for (as well as the windy situations mentioned in videos), but again rope1 and strop will be used as they always have been. The absorber won't deploy until needed . I put my full weight on it and it didn't move.

 

Believe me .. if I ever feel unsafe using it it'll go in the cupboard and stay there.

[warren]

"this is not the answer" ..

 

No the answer is "bury your head in the sand and write it on your risk assessment" which is basically what an AA approved member is saying. No names. 

And please, don't get me wrong, I'm against it as much as the next man but I'd quite like my employers insurance to payout and him not have to lose his house doing it. 

[Rich Rule]

Warren, where do you work mate?  I see your based in Maidstone, Kent.  I know a few firms in that area.

[scotspine1]

58 minutes ago, warren said:

 The absorber won't deploy until needed . I put my full weight on it and it didn't move.

 

Imagine for a moment......leaning out along a big limb, standing on your spikes cutting with a 70cc saw at full revs during a dismantle, your mainline slips off a stub further up in the canopy - shockloading the Asap line, the Asap line is suddenly dynamically loaded with your weight plus the saw weight, the absorber deploys. You fall onto the Asap line clattering yourself against the trunk with the 70cc saw running full revs. Not a great scenario to find yourself in.

 

.

 

[scotspine1]

50 minutes ago, warren said:

"this is not the answer" ..

 

No the answer is "bury your head in the sand and write it on your risk assessment" which is basically what an AA approved member is saying. No names. 

And please, don't get me wrong, I'm against it as much as the next man but I'd quite like my employers insurance to payout and him not have to lose his house doing it. 

 

Warren,

 

You'll need to persevere with managing the trailing ends of your lines, that may mean feeding them down through separate channels in the crown to avoid them getting tangled or crossed. Groundies will need to be attentive and keep them apart in ropebags etc. It'll be difficult and frustrating but it's a skill you'll need to develop. 

 

This system of yours here is fine, just learn to manage the ropes better. You're going to need to monitor and attend to them continually. 

 

 

. 

[warren]

27 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

Imagine for a moment......leaning out along a big limb, standing on your spikes cutting with a 70cc saw at full revs during a dismantle, your mainline slips off a stub further up in the canopy - shockloading the Asap line, the Asap line is suddenly dynamically loaded with your weight plus the saw weight, the absorber deploys. You fall onto the Asap line clattering yourself against the trunk with the 70cc saw running full revs. Not a great scenario to find yourself in.

 

.

 

 But I have a side strop...? Anyway enough of this .. end ex. 

[TIMON]

There is no way I’m going to use an ASAP and fall arrest system as a back up line.

I’ve got a load of work booked in the new year. Maybe my last year of climbing.

Based on what Scotspine has interpreted...

I’m leaning towards.

1. 45m Ddrt mainline with Zigzag

2. 5m long strop with Zillon (as 2nd line)

3. 1.5m short strop with VT/hitch climber.

Treemotion

Mainline on bridge.

Long strop on lower ‘D’s

Short strop/flip line on side ‘D’s

 

Edit.... mainly because that is close to what I already use and would most suit the kind of work I do.

I would use a longer 2nd line for large open canopies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scotspine1]

28 minutes ago, warren said:

 But I have a side strop...? Anyway enough of this .. end ex. 

 

Then why bother mentioning the Asap is for work positioning? 

 

“As regards work positioning on the 'lock' .. that's what it's designed for”

 

Its not designed for that at all. It’s primarily designed as a secondary fall arrest device. It certainly wasn’t designed with treework in mind either. That main centrifugal operated cam will be useless after the first cut fills it with saw shavings. 

 

Treework is a million miles away from industrial rope access. Its an entirely separate and distinct rope discipline. 

 

 

. 

[Pete Mctree]

I think we are all running ahead here a little. Although implemented in theory, the ICOP has not been finalised and put out to consultation yet, never mind published. I think there will be some scope to comment upon it, albeit in a composed and careful manor and express our thoughts on the two rope scenario. 

 

EDIT - the point below has already been covered by the HSE & AA. 2 ropes is default unless risk assessed etc

 

As a point of interest, I looked at the regulations with regards to work positioning and fail to see where it says two ropes are compulsory. It says where two lines are not "reasonably practical" a single anchor can be utilised.

[Gary Prentice]

48 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

 

 

. 

I wish I had a photo of my first climbing set up for comparison. I haven't so I'll attempt to describe it. 

 

Rope over limb tied to screw gate carabiner with a long-tailed bowline.

Tail from bowline used to tie prussic knot.

Figure eight stop knot.

 

Ain't things changed?