Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

1 hour ago, Tom D said:

What was the HSE reasoning behind this decision? I understand that while cutting there is a risk of severing a line and that therefore a back up line is a good idea, and also when retying a second line is required. But what do they think is going to happen whilst moving around the canopy? I mean if you're tied in correctly to a suitable anchor what could happen? 

 

The risk of falling material snagging on a line with two lines in the tree is going to be much higher and that is a serious safety concern. If as I understand it the two lines are not to be tied in to the same stem that implies that there will be an angle between the two lines, so if I'm out on a branch I have one line heading back to the tree in one direction and the other in a slightly different direction. Now imagine I'm removing an upright section of the limb Im standing on, I have a drop zone but it is partially obscured by one of my lines... do I disconnect the line and work off one line? Do I fell it anyway and take the chance? Do I stop and rethink the whole situation. I have had many situations where I barely had room to get material past a single line let alone two.

 

This problem is only made worse when rigging. When a limb swings back in under the pulley, as they must do, it is important that the climbers ropes do not contact the rigging lines, a rigging line will burn through a climbing line very quickly in such a situation, this is a significant part of the NPTC Rigging course. Rope management. In a two line situation we are asking for accidents here.

I can already see that any job which involves material being cut from above the climber will be dangerous, and likewise any rigging job. I will amend our RA to say that any job that falls into either of the above categories will be done off a single line on safety grounds. Jobs which only require material to be cut from below the climber such as crown lifting and some one side reductions may be safe with two lines.

 

I think the AA should setup a new demo for the HSE involving some real world dismantling, using complex rigging techniques and then they will gain a better understanding of the risks involved.

Hi Tom, I will certainly put your proposals to my colleagues, and HSE, but I think the response, at least initially, will be that via risk assessment you are identifying operations / work methods that 'you' consider will introduce a higher level of risk and the process already allows for this in both instances, i.e. tree climbing / work positioning and SRT / SRWP.  

Regards,

Paul

[scotspine1]

3 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

mmmm, may suffice in certain situations when tree climbing / 'work positioning' but don't think it would be deemed adequate for SRT / SRWP  

 

Paul, see on the HSE demo day did the climbers initially perform long ascents using SRT into the canopy? setting their line via throwbag with base tie offs etc? 

 

any video footage available? can you request the HSE video footage be made available online Youtube/HSE website etc? and if not why not? it's a tax payer funded government agency.

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

2 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

Paul, see on the HSE demo day did the climbers initially perform long ascents using SRT into the canopy? setting their line via throwbag etc with base tie offs etc? 

 

any video footage available? can you request the HSE video footage be made available online Youtube etc? and if not why not? it's a tax payer funded government agency.

 

 

 

 

Hi ??? / "Scots Pine" (sorry, another, memory fail)

 

I actually wasn't present but I understand a whole range of different access techniques, ascents / descents, configurations etc. were demo'd. Whether it was video'd I don't know...I'm not aware it was but I will ask.

 

Regards,

Paul

[scotspine1]

9 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Whether it was video'd I don't know...I'm not aware it was but I will ask.

 

Regards,

Paul

 

Cheers,

 

It apparently was video'd, this is from the AA article, see last sentence below, would be good to see some footage to see what the HSE were looking at and what made them conclude SRT/SRWP was rope access and not work positioning because 95% of SRT use nowadays is work positioning. 

 

Arboricultural Association - Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

WWW.TREES.ORG.UK

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A range of tree related help and advice for members of the public as well as tree surgeons.

 

Demonstration day: 10 June 2019

We set up a demonstration day at Stoneleigh Deer Park Golf Club, Coventry, on 10 June. The following were present:

• Simon Richmond, Senior Technical Officer, AA
• Chris Cooper-Abbs, lead author for TG1
• Matt Brooker, author for TG1 and demonstration climber
• Ben Rose, demonstration climber and SRT expert
• Jo Hedger, demonstration climber and world tree climbing champion
• John Trenchard, tree climbing trainer/assessor and representative for Lantra Awards
• Rob Blake, tree climbing trainer/assessor and representative for C&G NPTC

From HSE:

• Andrew Turner
• Stuart Parry
• Paul McGann (WAH specialist)
• David Wooley (HSE Photographer)

David Wooley took video footage and still photos of the demonstrations and of some discussions around the tree climbing demonstrations.

 

 

 

[Tom D]

Paul, I think the issue of commonly having climbing ropes at other than vertical angles close to falling material make this a completely different situation to IRATA type roped access. I would be very keen in speaking to the HSE or AA to highlight these crucial differences. 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

2 minutes ago, Tom D said:

Paul, I think the issue of commonly having climbing ropes at other than vertical angles close to falling material make this a completely different situation to IRATA type roped access. I would be very keen in speaking to the HSE or AA to highlight these crucial differences. 

Hi Tom, clearly yourself and Scots Pine are thinking along similar lines and, other than perhaps 'on access' to the tree, I quite agree.

Again, I will feed this back.

Regards,

Paul

[Mark J]

I can't see many firms paying level 3 IRATA wages for a decent climber.

[Craig Johnson]

15 minutes ago, Mark J said:

I can't see many firms paying level 3 IRATA wages for a decent climber.

does window cleaning pay well?

 

[Rich Rule]

Yes very well.

 

if you are level 3.

[Mike Hill]

How much were Jo and Ben paid?