Big J on radio 4..

[LeeGray]

What money was stolen? Did I miss something?

[eggsarascal]

12 minutes ago, LeeGray said:

What money was stolen? Did I miss something?

I guess it depends where you stand on the subject of taxation, some folk will say it's theft others will say it isn't.

[Conor Wright]

83 million euros.
That's what the largest single farming subsidy granted in ireland was for one year.
This went to a large mnc, greencore. Their after tax profits were 640 million in the same year.
Never mind bitching about small landowners getting a few thousand here and there. Far more insidious things are happening while everyone blames their neighbour.
A rough estimate leads me to believe that the average payment in my local area is in the region of 15k. Roughly 135000 family farms in the country gives approx 2bn in payments based on this average yet there is over 4bn granted. All the top recipients are large privately owned companies. Many receiving millions annually but returning profits far greater than the grant/subsidy amounts.

These companies have unfair market control and can influence price therefore squeezing family farms to the brink, farm takes a loan on the land to try and make ends meet or improve production, price falls again, bank takes land, large mnc buys land, entitling them to even greater subsidies. Repeat.

[MattyF]

Another factor is a lot of in farming asubsidies are for leaving land fallow I know some who pocket over 20k and they do absolute nothing with there land it’s all slowly turning back to nature the price for intensive arable land on the environment is huge so whilst half the country lays in a baron glysophate wasteland it seems absurd but if it’s the only way to stop such management is it worth it? , get some land and get a good agent and you can make money.. my dad sold off 40acres the guy he sold it too had a good land agent and got 60k in grants for planting and maintaining for 5 years now he’s selling it for triple what he paid.

[eggsarascal]

This is straight from the horses mouth: farmer local to me told me that the actual agricultural side of his farm looses money year in year out, he makes his money through contracting to other much bigger farmers, subsidies, and other government (us) funded schemes.

 

Side note: he's a council owned tenent farmer who's tenancy is due to run out in 2 years time and the council won't tell him if they will renew it, how's he meant to plan for the future?

Edited August 29, 2019 by eggsarascal

[LeeGray]

1 hour ago, eggsarascal said:

I guess it depends where you stand on the subject of taxation, some folk will say it's theft others will say it isn't.

Tax is tax, theft is theft. Some folk might say black is white I suppose, but doesn’t mean it is.

[openspaceman]

3 hours ago, AHPP said:

I strongly suspect the dolescum are a drop in the ocean compared to the landscum.

I don't agree with your train of thought or your language but if you mean the costs to society of non equitable subsidies (and tax avoision??) exceeds exceeds the costs of supporting the unemployed and poorer parts of society yes, in spades.

[eggsarascal]

4 hours ago, difflock said:

 

Gents, I can only reiteriate my family owned farm upbringing of 60-50 year ago. It was very plain, any money was re-invested in the farm business. My father and his brother worked brutally hard. There was no mains electric. There was no mains water.There were no holidays. There were few luxuries, compared to my townie classmates.

These things may have changed, BUT that is how family owned farms were inherited or accrued. You can be as envious and jealous of the current farmers/landowners as you like but you sound like Uncle Joe Stalin and his reaction to, and treatment of the Kulaks. Link attatched.

Kulak - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

Chuck the envious and jealous in and think people take notice of it. According to your logic people who have worked hard and done well should be entitled to state hand outs yet if you've worked hard in a low paid job or fallen on your arse and need a lift from the state you can fuck right off, and that makes me Stalin like, righto.

 

And before you start I've never defended the feral, the feckless and long term useless.

Edited August 29, 2019 by eggsarascal

[ESS]

Contrary to what a lot are assuming the current subsidy system in this country did not come about because UK farmers are lazy , bad at they do or anything else of that nature, in fact totally the opposite.Pre EU farm subsidies were introduced to put cheaper food on the table and keep farms afloat at the same time. UK farmers were doing what was asked of them and because of their efficiency we had milk mountains, beef , potatoes, lamb, etc etc in intervention .EU farmers who are  less efficient could not compete, hence the goal post moving by Brussels.Without subsidies food bills could easily double, that would be the cost of production, the consumer does get the benefit of subsidies, and a lot of the money filters back into local economies.

Child allowance is a "benefit", I wonder how many of the knockers have decided not to claim that because it is "wrong"? 

Its very easy to take the moral high ground based on assumptions, a very high percentage of farmers are tenants faced with high rents.We have arguably the best highest animal welfare standards in the world with full traceability on produce , but it comes at a cost.Most farmers I know, including my own family members would be happier farming instead of receiving environmental payments, they do not make the rules.nor do they dictate the prices, processors and supermarkets do that for them.

Commercial forestry is a subsidised industry, receives tax breaks and is long term. If it was attractive there would be a rush to plant land,but its not happening, nor is it likely to without further subsidies. 

Eggs made a reference about a county council holding,.. three years ago I did some work not far from Milton Keynes, the council had taken back 500 acres of prime tenanted agricultural land to go under concrete.

One day with the annual land loss, and population increase we will become hungry, subsidies may not seem a bad thing then.

[eggsarascal]

7 minutes ago, Big J said:

I think that's a bit of a negative view to take on it. 

 

I use the example of a woodland we're working in in October. 22 acres owned by one family from a small village. He lets anyone from the village walk around and use it, and it's completely unblighted by litter or dog poo.

Good. There's a lady local to here who owns a woodland, not sure on acreage, she not only harvests the timber but runs kid's activity days where they build dens, have fires and generally mess about in the woods.