Climate change anyone?

[trigger_andy]

Just now, sime42 said:

So I bought some frozen white fish the other day from a supermarket. On reading the description it turns out that it's Alaskan Pollock packed in China. So it's traveled from Alaska to China to the UK. The food miles involved in that make me shudder. Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system. The sooner we stop doing stuff like that the better. It's crazy. That must need some kind of regulation.
If Brexit fixes problems like that then great, there is a silver lining to the cloud. I doubt it though. I heard today that we only produce 50% of our own food, the other 50% is imported. So if we reduce trade with our neighbours in Europe then we'll be forced to import more food from further around the globe. Hence more food miles. Not good.

Id say that was a massive failure on your part to be honest. If you wanna jump on that high-horse maybe do so before purchasing? Who do you think you're supporting buying Frozen fish from a Supermarket, in reality yourself and no one else.

 

When you get your feet in the stirrups mosey on down to your local Fishmonger. Be the change you wanna see then come back and preach. 

[openspaceman]

7 minutes ago, sime42 said:

Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system.

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

[sime42]

Id say that was a massive failure on your part to be honest. If you wanna jump on that high-horse maybe do so before purchasing? Who do you think you're supporting buying Frozen fish from a Supermarket, in reality yourself and no one else.
 
When you get your feet in the stirrups mosey on down to your local Fishmonger. Be the change you wanna see then come back and preach. 

Fair point. I have thought subsequently that it was also a failure on my part, I wouldn't go as far as to say massive though. I genuinely didn't think for one minute that it would be anything other than British caught fish. Naive I guess.
If I had a local fishmonger I would be in there every week, believe me. Sadly we don't have one though.

[sime42]

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

Semantics maybe. Or I didn't convey my thoughts clearly enough.
So it's a success for the market;, it's only doing what's it's supposed to, very well, creating wealth. But it's a failure for us and the planet.

[trigger_andy]

Fair point. I have thought subsequently that it was also a failure on my part, I wouldn't go as far as to say massive though. I genuinely didn't think for one minute that it would be anything other than British caught fish. Naive I guess.

If I had a local fishmonger I would be in there every week, believe me. Sadly we don't have one though.

Maybe not a massive failure, that was more an echo of your own sentiments. If its not a massive failure on your part then equally its not a massive failure on the Supermarkets either? 

 

If you're buying 6 fillets for £3.00 you'd have to be fairly naïve to believe its being produced in the UK. Its simply not a sustainable price. Three whole fish filleted and 100% prepped for you to pop on the pan all for around 10% of a Trademans hourly wage? Thats simply not sustainable for the oceans either.  You cant moan and complain if you're apart of the problem. 

 

No fishmonger local, then if you feel as deeply as you indicate then perhaps you need to shop on-line for fish and make it a more of a treat than a staple? 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by trigger_andy

[openspaceman]

28 minutes ago, sime42 said:

So it's a success for the market;, it's only doing what's it's supposed to, very well, creating wealth. But it's a failure for us and the planet.

Yes I believe so.

[AHPP]

1 hour ago, sime42 said:

So I bought some frozen white fish the other day from a supermarket. On reading the description it turns out that it's Alaskan Pollock packed in China. So it's traveled from Alaska to China to the UK. The food miles involved in that make me shudder. Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system. The sooner we stop doing stuff like that the better. It's crazy. That must need some kind of regulation.
If Brexit fixes problems like that then great, there is a silver lining to the cloud. I doubt it though. I heard today that we only produce 50% of our own food, the other 50% is imported. So if we reduce trade with our neighbours in Europe then we'll be forced to import more food from further around the globe. Hence more food miles. Not good.

I don't know anything about the fish trade but you bought it.

 

[AHPP]

54 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

Pigou was a commie loser.

[sime42]

Maybe not a massive failure, that was more an echo of your own sentiments. If its not a massive failure on your part then equally its not a massive failure on the Supermarkets either?   
If you're buying 6 fillets for £3.00 you'd have to be fairly naïve to believe its being produced in the UK. Its simply not a sustainable price. Three whole fish filleted and 100% prepped for you to pop on the pan all for around 10% of a Trademans hourly wage? Thats simply not sustainable for the oceans either.  You cant moan and complain if you're apart of the problem. 
 
No fishmonger local, then if you feel as deeply as you indicate then perhaps you need to shop on-line for fish and make it a more of a treat than a staple? 
 
 

Mate, you love it don't you?!

Believe it or not I didn't actually notice the price of the fish. I wasn't buying based on price. I chose it for being frozen. (But I suppose that convenience is almost as bad as low price when it comes to food consumption and production).

I really think that in this country and the rest of the "developed world" food is essentially too cheap..This is behind a whole host of problems;- environmental damage, obesity, poor animal welfare to name but a few obvious ones. I accept that this is in part down to us as consumers, but I think supermarkets and the food industry in general have a bigger responsibility. They are after all profit driven. The cheaper they can sell and produce food the bigger their profits. Here again regulation at a state or government level could be used to help address this issue.

I could swear that last night there was more in one of your posts. Something about buying fresh fish online and driving 30 minutes to your "local" fishmonger. How very odd. Did I imagine that or did you sneakily delete a part of or a post again? [emoji12]

I was going to ask you for the details of the online fishmongers. I was also going to chastise you for driving 30 minutes, (each way?), just to buy some fish. That doesn't seem very responsible at all. Though obviously not as bad getting fish from China!

[trigger_andy]

2 hours ago, sime42 said:

I could swear that last night there was more in one of your posts. Something about buying fresh fish online and driving 30 minutes to your "local" fishmonger. How very odd. Did I imagine that or did you sneakily delete a part of or a post again?

I was going to ask you for the details of the online fishmongers. I was also going to chastise you for driving 30 minutes, (each way?), just to buy some fish. That doesn't seem very responsible at all. Though obviously not as bad getting fish from China!

I removed that last part as I thought it sounded a bit pretentious. 

 

https://www.kingcrab.co.uk/

 

I like these guys. Delivered to your door within 24 hours. I also buy Beef and Hogget on-line through facebook of all places. Scottish Crofters and small scale Farmers.

 

https://www.facebook.com/CreagMhorHebrideans

 

No, 30 minute round trip, but I dont go into town specifically for Fish, I'll buy at the Mongers or Butchers if Im already in town getting a shop or buying other supplies.

 

If I can buy local I do, if I can buy UK sourced I do. Its about practicing what you preach. There is little point in bleating on about it if you're not putting these things into practice yourself. And yes, road miles comes into play, but I feel much better that Im supporting local or UK Fishers and Farmers than importing from around the Globe.