Chainsaw refresher, a scam?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi all, as I'm sure you're aware the "recommendation" for 5-yearly refresher training, as a professional operator, comes from HSE guidance (INDG 317) and FISA 805 Training & Certification (copy attached, see sects. 33-35.) ...and of course the previous stance / requirement by FISA for mandatory 5 yearly re-qualification, in effect, has emphasized the matter (plus the insurance industry will / can influence too.) 

 

Respectfully, we do often pick-up 'bad habits' along the working way and being in the company of an experienced, and competent, trainer, with a view to advancing our skill levels, can be beneficial. Whilst there are structured refresher courses available, mainly with Lantra and FISA, please do take the opportunity to 'up-skill,' e.g. CS31-CS32-CS33-CS34-CS35 (as was), where applicable as this will achieve both objectives.

 

Alternatively, you could try to engage / employ a trainer to work with you to produce a more specific training needs analysis and then deliver a customized program to better suit your needs (and hopefully your pockets as, at least to some degree, the operators can hopefully stay productive.) This does still need to be documented, and ideally certificated, such that there is evidence of the training being undertaken and most providers can do this.

 

It would be a real pity just to undertake, for instance, a small tree felling refresher and not advance your skill levels...after-all 380mm dia. isn't that big of a tree.

 

Just another perspective appen.. 

Paul          

FISA 805 Training and Certs.pdf

[drinksloe]

With the 'upskilling' thing their is now a whole bunch of meaningless tickets that never existed before and were mostly part of 32, so u could probably just do an assesment with someone.

 

Can't even mind wot the BS course title i done but was only 6 months ago, assisted fell or something but just using a tirfor, wot was 15mins in the old 32 is now a course on its own

[paxus]

Our company is now looking at this also.  its a pain in the backside but I guess I can see the reason for it.  Its going to cost us a lot in training fees, even more in downtime.

[Stubby]

7 minutes ago, paxus said:

Our company is now looking at this also.  its a pain in the backside but I guess I can see the reason for it.  Its going to cost us a lot in training fees, even more in downtime.

Well that's the thing . Someone sets themselves up as an " authoritative " body in whatever subject coz they can see a business opportunity . They bang the drum long enough and eventually their  noise gets accepted as " law"  and those people who have learnt and perfected their craft ( what ever it may be ) are now subjected to these tests, at a cost , even though they may be more competent than the tester .  

[Blandboy]

22 hours ago, spuddog0507 said:

i dont think i would pass a driving test again first time as way to many bad habbits now and its the same with saws,

So by your own admission you'd be passing on bad habits.

Quote

 if i just did the refresher course i would have to really think of what i was doing

...perhaps that's not a bad thing then.

 

[The avantgardener]

When it comes to doing refresher training there are a few things that you need to consider before you book it and then complain that it wasn’t any good.

As an experience Forestry hand cutter there is no point me booking some training with an instructor who specialises in Arb who just happens to teach CS31, that isn’t going to work and I would check out the persons credentials and experience before I pay my money.

LANTRA vetted their instructors a couple of years back and formed a group of +F trainers who specialise in Forestry, FISA instructors specialise in Forestry, this is who I would be contacting for my relevant refresher training.

If I hold all the ground based units already I would be speaking with the training provider and tailoring the refresher to suit my requirements, concentrating on the things I don’t do as regularly, e.g do a morning covering CS32 cuts to show you can cut to a good standard and the afternoon winch assisting and skidding out timber with the tractor using different offset configurations etc

If you are cutting on FC land you need a refresher from a LANTRA +F or FISA Instructor anyway.

One of the reasons that organisations like FISA have been able to ‘bang the drum’ for so long,as Stubby put it, is down to loads of people bankrolling them with membership fees and signing up to the agreement, all to get another sticker in the truck window, you can’t complain when you then have to comply with their decisions.

[The avantgardener]

2 hours ago, drinksloe said:

With the 'upskilling' thing their is now a whole bunch of meaningless tickets that never existed before and were mostly part of 32, so u could probably just do an assesment with someone.

 

Can't even mind wot the BS course title i done but was only 6 months ago, assisted fell or something but just using a tirfor, wot was 15mins in the old 32 is now a course on its own

I don’t think Assissted fell was ever in CS32, you just had to winch a hung tree out.

if you spent a whole day doing Winch Assisted felling with a Tirfor I think that is pretty poor training, I would want a tractor winch and multiple sheave blocks and different configurations to work out loads and strop/shackle ratings etc, then I might actually cover something that I do infrequently.

[TIMON]

Hi all, as I'm sure you're aware the "recommendation" for 5-yearly refresher training, as a professional operator, comes from HSE guidance (INDG 317) and FISA 805 Training & Certification (copy attached, see sects. 33-35.) ...and of course the previous stance / requirement by FISA for mandatory 5 yearly re-qualification, in effect, has emphasized the matter (plus the insurance industry will / can influence too.) 
 
Respectfully, we do often pick-up 'bad habits' along the working way and being in the company of an experienced, and competent, trainer, with a view to advancing our skill levels, can be beneficial. Whilst there are structured refresher courses available, mainly with Lantra and FISA, please do take the opportunity to 'up-skill,' e.g. CS31-CS32-CS33-CS34-CS35 (as was), where applicable as this will achieve both objectives.
 
Alternatively, you could try to engage / employ a trainer to work with you to produce a more specific training needs analysis and then deliver a customized program to better suit your needs (and hopefully your pockets as, at least to some degree, the operators can hopefully stay productive.) This does still need to be documented, and ideally certificated, such that there is evidence of the training being undertaken and most providers can do this.
 
It would be a real pity just to undertake, for instance, a small tree felling refresher and not advance your skill levels...after-all 380mm dia. isn't that big of a tree.
 
Just another perspective appen.. 
Paul          
FISA 805 Training and Certs.pdf

I can see the original thinking behind it, however, every time (apart from once) I’ve seen a refresher being taken the assessor/ instructor has always looked at it as a ‘box tick’.

[spuddog0507]

1 hour ago, Blandboy said:

So by your own admission you'd be passing on bad habits.

...perhaps that's not a bad thing then.

 

who said any thing about passing on bad habits ??? because you or i wont and no one should be passing any thing on bad habits, been driving 37 yrs and never had to or will need to go for a re test unless the goverment introduce something ?, as with saws been using them now on a commercial basis for 38yrs did,nt have the need for a chainsaw ticket untill about 7 yrs ago went on a 5 day course and got told to go home on second day and come back on sat for my assecment, but befor this been cutting large trees and severing windblown for years, in my book expieriance counts for alot and as some one has said some people who have tickets should not really have them, i have had young lads come working with us expecting to fell 3 or 4 trees aday  not 23 or 24 , one lad came felled 9 cs31 size trees in the day lad on other side of stand 57 big differance, and another one came had cs31 & 32 said he had loads of expperiance of felling big trees put him in a stand of spruce trees 15-25" looked like he was shitting him self, couldnt fell a tree to save his life that guy i think he got 5 out of seven befor dinner hung up, hence never seen him since but how do they get a ticket in the first place i personally think the basic standards are set to low.most of my work is sorting windblown out and for the guys on here who do the same i think will agree with what i am about to say and that is sorting windblown is totally different to felling standing trees and in my oppinion its chuck the rule book away on this subject and do what your expeirance tells you as every tree in a windblown stand reacts so much different than the last one, been cutting windblown today and the when other lad went at 5 i stayed and forwarded all timber out ready for clean start in the morning,

[steve collins]

Refreshers are needed as there are still  trainers/colleges out there handing out tickets like sweets which is not good for industry!!  All you end up with people who are competent on paper but are absolutely useless all because it looks good that they pass so many which means more business which means more MONEY MONEY!!