Wage! How much should the going rate be?

[openspaceman]

4 hours ago, Mike Hill said:

 

Not sure about that.

The Demand would have stayed static,the supply has been reduced?

Yes but the proposal was that the price would go up, which it will due to lack of supply of labour, but because the price-demand curve for a luxury good is shallow a small rise in price leads to a much larger reduction in demand.

 

When I started (delving into arb from forestry) the demand was growing   from the post war boom in the economy. There were few climbers. As the demand grew colleges churned out more climbers and more firms offered arb services, competition thus drove down prices as the demand increased .

 

Of course with H&S considerations costs have increased so profitability has further decreased.

 

[Mark Bolam]

Good post.

 

I would have shortened it to

More cutters = less money.

[James905]

Small van doing 45mpg and 80quid road tax and 300 insurance
Big tipper doing 20mpg if lucky 280 road tax 1500 insurance
No public liability no employee liability no personal indemnity no hired in plant no chipper insurance 4-5 grand saved.
Advertising well that's a personal thing how much you want to spend but if you want to get £400 jobs everyday you'll have to put min a grand a year in. Somewhere to run out of, a chipper or possibly a trailer and mash to start with, tipping charges.
If you work 220 days a year at 400 I'm up to about 50 a day costs give or take for the above then pay your helper 150 as that's been agreed what it should be your down to 200 so yes it's twice but then your off every Saturday and evening quoting and doing paperwork so adding 50% more hrs to your working week so for a shit load more hassle your actually not that much better off per hr till your established enough to take on bigger jobs or have a decent contract and even then you need 100% drive to do it.

Might get shot down for this post but I've seen so many lads try and fail because they just looked at the cheque in had and not what it actually cost them in reality to do the job.

You are right I'm not disputing it.

I run a pickup with my own tools and public liability employers etc... Currently just with sub contracting.

It all comes down to how you run and it's a huge amount more haste I definitley agree.
All comes down to working out what it costs you to go to each job without making profit and working from there and to suit you.

As income goes up so do out goings so it's all about being clever. You could write an essay on it easily so I will leave it there

I have friends that have gone on there own, become VAT registered within the first year and fold due to stress.

I work because I love what I do and I have a set base for each day of what it costs me to work as a subby and privately.
I cap my spending and work very hard to make jobs work in my favour without a yard. Its definitley not for everyone and most people grow way too fast for their own good

[Gray git]

You are right I'm not disputing it.

I run a pickup with my own tools and public liability employers etc... Currently just with sub contracting.

It all comes down to how you run and it's a huge amount more haste I definitley agree.
All comes down to working out what it costs you to go to each job without making profit and working from there and to suit you.

As income goes up so do out goings so it's all about being clever. You could write an essay on it easily so I will leave it there

I have friends that have gone on there own, become VAT registered within the first year and fold due to stress.

I work because I love what I do and I have a set base for each day of what it costs me to work as a subby and privately.
I cap my spending and work very hard to make jobs work in my favour without a yard. Its definitley not for everyone and most people grow way too fast for their own good

Very sensible considered answer, to many spout of without any understanding.

[James905]

Very sensible considered answer, to many spout of without any understanding.

Way too many keyboard warriors out there that like to force opinion!
Better off learning off others as being stubborn gets you nowhere!

[Mick Dempsey]

Now hang on a bit, lots of good opinions on this thread, free exchange of the fruit of  years of experience paying, receiving and negotiating wages in the industry.

 

Arbtalk gold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Squirrel]

On 15/10/2018 at 16:47, Rough Hewn said:

You can't buy 12 years of chainsaw and tree experience.

For what it's worth I'm with you on many points. I'd add that at 42 with 12 years cutting experience I'd be wanting more than 120/day to bust my arse. 

Say you pay a subby climber 150/day. Take off mileage, say 20. Then ppe, saws (I don't want someone else's saws up a tree), kit etc 10. Then tax, you're down to 94/day actual money. 

PAYE climber will get how much, 70/day after tax? Guaranteed money. Plus paid holidays, plus pension contributions. At which point you're really not that much better off subbing. Just means you can decide when you work.

I charge 160/day when I'm subbing, which for a qualified and experienced climber who takes the job seriously and invests time and money in their quality of work I think is very reasonable.

 

Running my own jobs I pay my regular groundsman 135/day minimum. When it warrants it l pay him 150. When I get climbers in I pay them 200+/day. If I could I'd match European rates, but there are limits...

 

 

[Big J]

Getting back into forestry after a few years in a sawmill, I'm developing my policy towards wages for cutters and it's as follows:

 

I expect a good day's graft, working on average 10 hours (07:00 to 17:00) with decent breaks and banter (I might work though a meal on the forwarder, but don't expect cutters to). I expect very high standards of technical skill, presentation and attention to detail. 

 

I expect a grace period where folk adapt to my way of working, during which they are paid slightly less, but once up to that standard, I pay £200 a day for a self employed cutter. If the cutter isn't able to get to that standard, I won't continue using them.

 

The funny thing is that I think you get a cheaper tonne (on the deck, ready for extraction) paying your cutters really well because you are only using the best and their output is so much higher. And they're happy too as it's a proper wage. 

 

I look at forestry jobs now thinking of how I'd approach it with good cutters and if I can't make money on it paying a decent wage to my cutters then it's not worth doing. If you want motivated, skilled contractors, you have to pay the right money. If you want repeat work and recommendations, you need skilled operatives to do a good job.

 

That being said, over the years I've had folks on site who weren't worth £50 a day, so you have to keep your eye on your worker when determining what to pay them!

 

                                      

[WesD]

On 15/10/2018 at 17:40, Rough Hewn said:

When's the last time you had to get a plumber, electrician, chippy etc.
£200+ per day
That's all over the country.
My point is if we under value our services we only have ourselves to blame.
If employers don't want to pay a decent/competitive wage, they face staff problems as we constantly see on here. People leave and setup their own business.

Do you think those that leave and set up their own gig pay £150 to groundies?

[mawsonarb]

It's the reason all these small firms are sprouting up.

Climbers going on their own. I get paid 100pd as lead and I mean I set up organise climb, drag, chip, tip the lot!

Today I called it off to do my own work and will earn 400 without climbing more than 10ft up.

If firms paid more across the board then they would have more work with less of their staff leaving to go solo

Correct!