What are you paying your employees?

[Rough Hewn]

I'm sure it came from a Cnut.
No I'm not sure it's 100% truth but it's in the ball park somewhere.

[forestboy1978]

I mean this is the thing.. If I could find someone who could actually do my job, or even 1 major part of 3 of my jobs I could justify taking them on but I can't. 

 

So I use guys who basically get instructed but if they are full time if I'm sick they get paid for doing nothing cos they just can't do the job without me. How the hell does that work exactly?

 

I have to take my holiday when they choose to take their holiday for same reasons above.

 

You try finding a good fencer or landscaper who turns up to work every day rain or shine and works in the most diverse and often shitty environments, is hard working, thorough and polite to customers, for 25-30k per year so I can down tools once in a while and actually try and run a business. It's pretty hard to do. 

 

The other problem is you've got to take on ALL the shit when you have full time guys. Like every damn job to keep working coming in. I pick and choose my work. Turn down 1/3 or more of what comes my way and earn a good living. If I've got a detailed job to do that is almost impossible to do in the pouring rain I bung the guys some cash for being available and sometimes meet them at the pub. 

 

This is one of the many reasons I'm doing tree quals cos though yeah it's a shit to do in the rain and branch walking etc aint pleasant but the tools are waterproof and you have 5-15 machines and maybe some kit bags to take out and put back, not 100s of individual tools that rust and sometimes 20+ large tools and machines etc.... so rain or shine you can work to some degree. Can't lay a patio in the pouring rain... 

[Shane]

I've not read this entire post but IIRC correctly a couple of points that would 'help' prove someone is a subbie and not an employee are.....

They work for OTHER companies (or their own contracts) as well as you.

They use their own tools- if appropriate - climbers would have own chainsaws.

They meet you on site - not regularly at your yard.

They invoice you for each 'contract' (part day, day, days).

They do their own accounts.

They would typically have an ad-hoc schedule, not for example, the three days he's not at college.

They will probably have their own insurance, though your policy should cover them while they work for you.

They can be paid regularly (weekly. monthly, whatever).

 

Things may have changed a bit, but the tax man will want to see that a subbie is the sort of creature we all know/think he should reasonably be.

[forestboy1978]

Good info. 

 

I find I get a check or semi check on all those categories except that I don't get an invoice. I give them a receipt of their labour..

[Joe Newton]

There's a point that's always made me wonder with people who keep workers on a full time self employed basis. 

 

If you won't commit to them why the hell should they commit to you?

[kcstevens]

There's a point that's always made me wonder with people who keep workers on a full time self employed basis. 
 
If you won't commit to them why the hell should they commit to you?

That's my thinking. People won't commit to taking guys on an employed full time basis but are suprised if they then put themselves first and try and earn an extra buck

[Gary Prentice]

12 hours ago, Mark Wileman said:

Are you sure? I've researched pretty intensively looking for an exact definition but it's just a grey area and totally up to the opinion of the HMRC officer running the case. 

The same can be said for large contracts, whats the difference between me providing an arboricultural contracting service to a tree buisness for 2 years and a civil engineering company providing a service to highways for 2 years? I don't think the tax man is going to be getting Highways UK to pay Balfour Beatty's holiday pay for X amount of thousand employees

 

So long as you aren't breaching any of the bullet points on HMRCs 'are you employed' checklist then they can't touch you.

Probably cos the tree business is small, soft, target, without the case complexity and big legal that chasing someone like Balfour would involve. Google and Amazon comes to mind. If you're going to do battle, human nature is to choose a weaker opponent.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Gary Prentice

[Mark Wileman]

30 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

Probably cos the tree business is small, soft, target, without the case complexity and big legal that chasing someone like Balfour would involve. Google and Amazon comes to mind. If you're going to do battle, human nature is to choose a weaker opponent.

No wonder I used to fight so much on the piss...

[forestboy1978]

9 hours ago, Joe Newton said:

There's a point that's always made me wonder with people who keep workers on a full time self employed basis. 

 

If you won't commit to them why the hell should they commit to you?

Who says they should. That's the point. A lot of people want the flexibility. 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

On 3 August 2018 at 08:24, benedmonds said:

HMRC might still class him as an employee.

Especially if you are paying for training!