Quotations!

[forestboy1978]

Yep, we're on exactly the same page. 

 

I charge what I charge to stick it out to the bitter end and do it properly cutting no corners. 

[oldwoodcutter]

You’re right to stick with your quoted price, a few months
ago I quoted at £1200, he texted and said would I take £1000 as he was a bit strapped at the moment, but I told him my biggest expense is wages and my lads won’t take a cut in hourly rate just to suit him.
I got the go ahead at 1200 and passed by last week to see he was having a large detached house put up in the garden .
I found out yesterday he has the cleaning contract for 2 well known building society’s for the whole of England.
A millionaire and then some .

[Khriss]

There you go Forest B , its how the big companies in this world do it , this job is just too hard to give our valuable skills away - even thou' the big arb companies seem to be ( sorry ARE ) giving it away on some contracts , K

[forestboy1978]

3 hours ago, Inoff the Red said:

The attack on artificial separation of businesses is to stop someone simply splitting a business in two to stay under the VAT threshold. In the UK it would not stop you from operating different activities as different business, each with its own status and vat threshold.

It only gets tricky if the "unrelated" businesses use the same items of equipment or the split of services is artificial. In an arb context, having one business that cuts down trees and another that chips is likely to fall foul of the regs. A soap making business is demonstrably different to an arb business and I doubt the question of artificial separation would be raised.

My accountant told me that if I was to run 2 businesses from my 1 address, even if 1 was a partnership with someone else and the other a limited company in my name it could get tricky proving against artificial separation if it came down to court. You might win if the businesses are completely different but you have to have 2 offices, 2 phone lines, 2 computers, 2 different vehicles etcetera etcetera. There can be zero cross over or you will risk having to combine the 2 for VAT purposes. 

 

Don't quote me on this but it still might be worth chancing as, as I understand it VAT can't be backdated so if you did get found out you'd only have to start VATing both businesses from that point onwards. NOT 100% on that though. Regardless, I found another way. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by forestboy1978

[Will C]

One short saying for haggling customers sometime they don’t like it and are rude, others don’t like it and give you the job, some like it and give you the job

 

“If you can’t afford my level of skill and service I wish you all the best finding a contractor that suits your needs”

 

it it stops the haggling anyhows ?

[Inoff the Red]

4 hours ago, forestboy1978 said:

My accountant told me that if I was to run 2 businesses from my 1 address, even if 1 was a partnership with someone else and the other a limited company in my name it could get tricky proving against artificial separation if it came down to court. You might win if the businesses are completely different but you have to have 2 offices, 2 phone lines, 2 computers, 2 different vehicles etcetera etcetera. There can be zero cross over or you will risk having to combine the 2 for VAT purposes. 

 

Don't quote me on this but it still might be worth chancing as, as I understand it VAT can't be backdated so if you did get found out you'd only have to start VATing both businesses from that point onwards. NOT 100% on that though. Regardless, I found another way. 

 

Well I suppose it depends on the specifics of your businesses and in your circumstances he may have been correct but the legislation is aimed at artificial separation, not to combine different businesses even if they are operating from the same location. 

 

Have a read of the HMRC statement of practice here:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-practice-4-1983/statement-of-practice-4-1983

 

A key paragraph in this document reads as follows:

"Whilst it is true that the new measures focus on the effect rather than the reason for the separation, it must be stressed that their purpose is to counter artificial separation, which results in an avoidance of VAT. HMRC will therefore not aggregate businesses unless they are satisfied that the separation is artificial"

 

If, to use the example in the HMRC publication, a bed and breakfast business was split so one part provided the bed element and another offered the breakfast element, then the artificial nature of the separation is obvious.

IMHO if your two businesses had different activities then the question of artificial separation just does not apply, especially if one traded as a limited company and the other as a partnership. Sharing office facilities is irrelevant and does not "combine" two different businesses.

 

 

 

[Ashley-Middleton]

On 20/02/2018 at 06:08, donnk said:

When you first register for vat you can go back 7 years to reclaim VAT on allowable expenses (KIT).

Only 4 years for goods still on hand (such as kit), 6 months for services (such as a website or accounting fees).

[Ashley-Middleton]

On 20/02/2018 at 19:16, forestboy1978 said:

My accountant told me that if I was to run 2 businesses from my 1 address, even if 1 was a partnership with someone else and the other a limited company in my name it could get tricky proving against artificial separation if it came down to court. You might win if the businesses are completely different but you have to have 2 offices, 2 phone lines, 2 computers, 2 different vehicles etcetera etcetera. There can be zero cross over or you will risk having to combine the 2 for VAT purposes. 

 

Don't quote me on this but it still might be worth chancing as, as I understand it VAT can't be backdated so if you did get found out you'd only have to start VATing both businesses from that point onwards. NOT 100% on that though. Regardless, I found another way. 

The HMRC term for this is Disaggregation. The 'normal' occurrence for this is to split one larger business into 2 separate smaller businesses to avoid registering for VAT. However there are slight variations such as the example given of two separate companies for different clients. 

 

HMRC have specialist teams for this. There are several elements that are considered to work out if it should just be one company. How is the businesses advertised. Who are the clients (are they potentially the same people). This should be okay as its split domestic and commercial. However the issue is with the service being provided. Is the service the same. Yes. It is the same people running the company, the same people providing the work, and the same tools being used. I would suspect that HMRC would take the view that it should be one entity and therefore if one of the sub companies is vat registered (whether voluntarily or not) then output tax would be due from all sales of all companies. 

 

If you were to have two completely separate companies with different crews and tools then you may have an argument. If not, I wouldn't risk it.

 

And the VAT van be backdated. As a matter of course it will be taken back 4 years, but if they can prove that the evasion of VAT has been done 'deliberately' and the evidence has been 'concealed' then it can be taken back 20 years.

[arboriculturist]

On 2/20/2018 at 19:16, forestboy1978 said:

My accountant told me that if I was to run 2 businesses from my 1 address, even if 1 was a partnership with someone else and the other a limited company in my name it could get tricky proving against artificial separation if it came down to court. You might win if the businesses are completely different but you have to have 2 offices, 2 phone lines, 2 computers, 2 different vehicles etcetera etcetera. There can be zero cross over or you will risk having to combine the 2 for VAT purposes. 

 

Don't quote me on this but it still might be worth chancing as, as I understand it VAT can't be backdated so if you did get found out you'd only have to start VATing both businesses from that point onwards. NOT 100% on that though. Regardless, I found another way. 

VAT can be backdated - Period !

[timbernut]

I had to go VAT registered retrospectively £18000, wasn't much fun