Potus ???

[Barton77]

I believe richard1234 should be allowed to say that on this thread as long as he is willing to argue his point, just as I believe Matelot should be made to justify his views towards immigrants. 'Political correctness' has disappeared out of the window in these politics themed threads long ago, which I think is what makes them so interesting.

 

Accusations of racism are offensive, but I think Matelots apparently dogmatic belief that 'immigrants' are to blame for most political problems could also cause deep personal offence to many people as well. I don't think that's a reason to shut him up or kick him off the site tho, just a reason to keep arguing (and for Matelot to keep on repeating the same argument!! )

[matelot]

I believe richard1234 should be allowed to say that on this thread as long as he is willing to argue his point, just as I believe Matelot should be made to justify his views towards immigrants. 'Political correctness' has disappeared out of the window in these politics themed threads long ago, which I think is what makes them so interesting.

 

Accusations of racism are offensive, but I think Matelots apparently dogmatic belief that 'immigrants' are to blame for most political problems could also cause deep personal offence to many people as well. I don't think that's a reason to shut him up or kick him off the site tho, just a reason to keep arguing (and for Matelot to keep on repeating the same argument!! )

 

tbh, I always like when I'm called a "racist" (or any other insult) as it shows that the other person has no other arguments left.....

 

I don't think "immigrants" are to blame for every problem in the UK/ Europe. However they do add to problems ie lack of affordable housing/ reduced wages/ lack of jobs/ building on greenbelt/ increased terrorism/ pressure on public services.

[Mark J]

Originally Posted by wrsni View Post

I constantly find it ironic that so many of these liberal types and their various "causes", who love to berate others for their lack of tolerance and understanding, invariably seem to have so little of it themselves!

 

I don't consider myself to be liberal, I just don't like downtrodden people blamed for things they didn't do.

[matelot]

What do you mean by "the likes" and what particular "madness"? Don't you think it's a little too early to guage how much of a success the Policies that Trump will enact will be? It'll be interesting to see how far he goes with his promises. I hope he ends up suprising us all. As for Le Penn, I don't think the NF are a body worth promoting.

 

If tree work ever dries up, you'd do well wriiting for the mail.

 

I think Liberals like yourself will just have to live with the fact "political correctness" is an ideology that has had it's day. My entire life I've been told by schoolteachers/ the BBC/ the media that there was absolutely no drawbacks of mass migration from some of the most violent cultures on earth.

 

It seems fairly obvious now that migrants from violent cultures remain violent when they come to Europe.... I think Europeans have had their fill of "cultural enrichment" and will vote for right wing parties...

[Vespasian]

Can we get back to the issues please..

 

I don't give a monkeys if one person believes another a racist, not that I've seen one person on here who is....

 

Though I might add I have seen the tactics of the hard left put in play, attack the messenger instead of the facts...

[Haironyourchest]

How many "migrants" is enough? Is there a magic ratio that a given society can absorb before it ceases to be a functioning society? Does the type of migrant influence this hypothetic figure? Is there a metric for the number of traditionalist muslims a western country can "tolerate" before quality the economic and sociological strain is too much? Has governments addressed these issues?

 

There are literally billions of third-world people who would risk their lives to come to the west. There must be a finality somewhere.

 

As far as Im concerned I'd happily have a quarter of the population be a combination of eastern european, western european, indian, with a smattering of americans and so on. Many if not most of my friends are non natives. Im a first generation native. Maybe half of my clients are non native. Foreigners are very important for any culture - they bring different ways of doing things, new ideas, fresh genetics. But we have to be real about it.

[agg221]

Some facts:

 

1. There must have been 500 people killed by terrorists in Europe and America over the last year in a dozen plus attacks.

 

2. 5,000 Europeans have went to fight for Islamic State.

 

3. MI5 are watching 3,000 Islamic Extremists in Britain.

 

4. More British Muslims have joined IS than the British Army.

 

5. Mainstream politicians seem unwilling to admit that mass migration has made the West a more dangerous place to live.

 

It's not "mass hysteria" to be concerned about the increasing amount of terrorism in the West. If Liberals (like you) aren't going to be honest about terrorism the electorate will vote for politicians that listen to their concerns.

 

But yeah, you make some feeble jokes about Freddie Star if you think it helps you win the argument.

 

Do you have any credible references for 1-4 above?

 

On point 1, the figure looks reasonable but I would point out that there have been no deaths due to terrorism in the UK since 2013 (Lee Rigby). One of my colleagues (French) lost several good friends at the Bataclan and like any reasonable person I would far rather that nobody was killed, in the name of terrorism or anything else, however this is in the context of the 518 homicides in the UK alone in 2015 Homicide - Office for National Statistics

 

You talk about the vast numbers (8M people in the UK who were not born here) and appear to believe that there are massing hordes on the borders coming to join them. However, when you start breaking this down - immigrants include GIs who settled here after WWII; post-war Afro-Carribeans; a large number of Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis who arrived in the 1970s, together with some Chinese and a few Vietnamese. This is not a recent phenomenon and they have not, so far as I am aware, been inclined to do any of the negative things you attribute collectively to immigrants.

 

There are also a lot of immigrants from Europe, some permanent, some temporary. The figures don't discriminate which. They are also not carrying out terrorist acts.

 

There are full controls over immigration from outside the EU and anyone inside the EU who wants to come here has been able to for years, so where are these massing hordes going to come from? If it's inside Europe why aren't they here now; if it's outside Europe why won't we just refuse them visas as we do today?

 

Similarly in the US, it is not the hispanics, who make up the majority of immigrants, who are committing acts of terrorism.

 

Where are the UK terrorist suspects coming from then?

Of the 280 people arrested on terrorism offences in 2015, 78% were British or dual nationality https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-quarterly-update-to-december-2015/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-and-subsequent-legislation-arrests-outcomes-and-stop-and-search-great-britain-quarterly-u

You can review the link to see where they are coming from. So far as I can see, it seems to be radicalisation, mainly of second and third generation British muslims. It is a very small proportion of the total muslim community and is roundly condemned by the majority, but it would still be a good idea to understand the drivers and how to stop it. Since they are British citizens by birth, there isn't much else we can do about it.

 

You appear to be using the term 'immigrants' quite correctly to define everybody who has moved to the UK. You also appear indiscriminately to regard them collectively as wishing to cheat our benefits system, devalue jobs and murder us in our beds. Do you accept that the overwhelming majority of immigrants do not wish to do any of these things?

 

Alec

 

p.s. you refer to me as a Liberal - on the scale of Liberal to right wing extremist, I'll take that label.

Edited November 14, 2016 by agg221

[agg221]

How many "migrants" is enough? Is there a magic ratio that a given society can absorb before it ceases to be a functioning society? Does the type of migrant influence this hypothetic figure? Is there a metric for the number of traditionalist muslims a western country can "tolerate" before quality the economic and sociological strain is too much? Has governments addressed these issues?

 

There are literally billions of third-world people who would risk their lives to come to the west. There must be a finality somewhere.

 

As far as Im concerned I'd happily have a quarter of the population be a combination of eastern european, western european, indian, with a smattering of americans and so on. Many if not most of my friends are non natives. Im a first generation native. Maybe half of my clients are non native. Foreigners are very important for any culture - they bring different ways of doing things, new ideas, fresh genetics. But we have to be real about it.

 

Yep, excellent post and I wholly agree, these are very real questions and worth serious consideration. We are pretty much all immigrants at some point in our history and with each new wave, the culture evolves. The challenge as I see it is to maintain evolution, not revolution.

 

Alec

[wrsni]

p.s. you refer to me as a Liberal -

 

Personally I wouldn't see you as a liberal, more center ground.

 

And yes, that is indeed what in the past would have been classed as liberal, but not any more.

[Luckyeleven]

Another saying is "when in a hole stop digging".

 

Another is calling a spade a spade