Albedo

Good point for people to bear in mind, for me it doesn't matter as I live in a caravan. The chimney is six feet long, so its a 2 minute job to give it a clean now and again Also skyhuck I was talking about experimental burning, as you just suggested:001_smile: The green pear burned fine by the way, chucked out loads of heat and it was soaking wet too - I just put some more on:biggrin:

I would add that I've done most of the against the grain tree crimes in my time, where there is some reason, even if that reason is just that the boss says so. In this scenario however, thats where I stand. I'd rather have my my self imposed standards intact , than the money for doing a crap reduction on this tree

Very, very good question!!!! My brain is hurting thinking of an answer. Don't think I've ever thought about the why of it. I think the most truthful answer is that I'm not worried about what anyone else thinks. I'm worried that I would know that I did that, I couldn't look at it and know it was me that did it:001_smile:

Just build the scenario a bit. Small front garden on an estate, little cherry tree getting too big. Options - remove it and get rid of problem Reduce it - commit to future maintenance He really wants to keep it but smaller. If he didn't want future maintenance costs, its his tree and its his right to remove it. I can do that and be happy that it doesn't make me look bad. If I had reduced it as much as he wanted it would look horrible without being a pollard and he didn't want a pollard. So he had to take my explanation of what would be a nice reduction that I would put my name to, or fell it.

I would have felled it without any thought whatsoever, and taken his money

Fair enough skyhuck, but in terms of doing it right, my customers are the last people I would ask for an opinion. In fact I tell them how I'm going to do what they want doing. If they don't like that, I will walk away. for example job next week, I'm reducing a cherry, my way which I've explained to the customer. I can't take off as much as he wants as the tree doesn't offer a nice reduction that way. He has agreed to my way. If he had insisted on his way, I would say sorry, but I'm not having my name associated with that type of work and see ya later.

Yes that last bit was a bit throw away statementish. I accept your peer reviewingness, and consider my statement amended accordingly:biggrin: I

I sometimes have a bit of an experiment. I often make the next log I throw on a fire a fresh cut green one just for experimental purposes. I could throw on a bit of green ash right now and watch it, but I've done it a few times and it doesn't seem to burn better than any other green hardwood. I'm throwing on green pear at the moment, and it burns just the same as green ash on a already hot fire I've got a seasoned log pile about 60ft long (2 rows of 30ft) and 6 feet high, and 3 logs deep. Some of it is 3 yrs old so I'm not short of wood, just like experimenting. Just gonna throw some more green pear on now and will watch it burn:biggrin:

I'm sure you know this skyhuck and your comment I've quoted will stand anyway, but just to clarify for everybody what I meant by “Peer Review” as it is meant as a compliment to everybody on the forum. It means that I value the opinion of other tree surgeons If a scientist comes up with some new science, he writes it up and gets it published in a scientific journal. This is the process of “peer review”, as then other scientists working in the same field can say if they agree or not with his science, or duplicate and verify the experiments behind it. If new science is not published and reviewed in this way, it gets no support or credence. So when Hama for example, published photos of his reductions on here, he was putting his work up for “peer review” , and we reviewed it and said it was good, bad, etc The comment I made about ‘carrying out work that your peers agree is an acceptable standard’. Is saying that for example: If I post a picture or an idea on here and everyone says its crap, I would have to think about that, as the people saying its crap are people that do what I do (my peers), not some teacher or assessor who last touched a tree 20 yrs ago.

Don't go to the HND, myerscough. I did the first year and it had such an unbelievable workload, lots at degree level, that I swapped to a degree in environmental science, which was no easier. Stick it out though, your fungus work shows that you can do it, don't put the academics on a pedestal, just do your own thing dude. There you go - I've really derailed you now, Paul the derailer:biggrin:

Hamma do you have a working title for your aerial rescue thing? might help to keep it relevant or on thread. Luv the way youv'e managed to combine college work with spending time on here, I wondered how you ever got any of your degree work done

That was quick, back already?

My next paragraph may be a bit of a derailment so sorry hama. My first post being I hope relevant as it was my view on aerial rescue / H&S. In that its expensive to introduce it properly. Whilst taking your point paul that the W@H regs are not of the AA's making, and by extension any existing regs have to be box ticked when you are dishing out AA approval. My reason for mentioning the AA in my previous post is that I feel our H&S obsessed work culture is getting in the way of just working or doing the job. We need a sticker on our trucks that says we do good tree work, not one that says we promise not to hurt ourselves whilst doing work to your tree which is not regulated by any industry body. I am asking for a shift of emphasis within your criteria from H&S to quality of treework. People are saying its difficult to enforce, but I can think of a few ways of moveing in that direction. How about arranged site visits, which are easier than surprise ones to arrange. Anyway, perhaps this angle of things is for another thread

I know its a lot to remember all these requests. But don't forget to tell em to fix the oil cap on the 020:biggrin:

My favourite would be the ones I saw outside b&Q this afternoon, at £7.99 a bag containing 8 or 9 small split logs, barely enough for an evening. Why? Because there must be people out there rich or stupid enough to pay almost a pound per half log. We could be very rich if we could find them:biggrin:

Wrote this earlier then had to whiz out for a bit, but it agrees with what skyhuck just posted. I would like to see a list of the actual £ cost of all this H&S stuff, especially from the AA who seem more concerned with our H&S and form filling than the quality of our tree work. (not an attack Paul, I also welcome you and the AA, but want to make a point here) Whilst recognising that you can't buy back someone's life, once lost due to ignoring H&S. Hows about putting a cost on: Groundie ticketed all the way to aerial rescue. Spare climbing Kit etc Then how do we decide whether to spend that, or buy basic equipment, in order to be able to do the job and put food on the table. The net result of compliance with all these regs seems to be a contributing factor, (from other threads) to a lot of people struggling to make a profit. I know my decission, and I don't care if it breaks laws (some of which I regard as political correctness gone mad). My decission applies to my own safety only, where someone else becomes involved, I know that I have a responsibility to travel a fair bit further down the H & S road. Even the NHS is not a bottomless pit of money, it makes decissions on the cost effectiveness of a given life saving machine etc. So we can't just say - what price on a life? this side of H&S compliance needs to be addressed I think.

On the bright side Ty At least they (your tricky froggy clients) are keeping your Arbtalk thread alive, which in turn is giving us something to talk about:biggrin:

If you climb trees for a living you are a Tree surgeon. If you lay bricks for a living you are a bricklayer. Quality of the work done is a thing that takes a bit of time. Can you identify the tree, its condition, justify works to be carried out,(or not to be carried out), predict from experience the effect of proposed works on the tree, related trees and built structures? Then give an accurate idea of how long the work will take, how many people required and equipment needed, in order to price the work accurately. Then having established any necessary permissions, can you carry out the above to a standard, that your peers, thats everyone on here, will agree is an acceptable standard, and of course your client? Also within your quoted price, and without breaking anything expensive or hurting anyone. If so --- you are still a tree surgeon

Thanks very much for going to the effort to post the info yve, will chase it up at some point soon. Had to start doin phone calls, quotes, sharpening things etc and get work head on yesterday. Photo's on back burner for now. I only really posted this thread, to say I tried, so to speak, so I'm amazed that thru the arbtalk forum magic, that some usefulness has come out of it, from your contributions, giving us what has to be a very useful contact for data retrieval from trashed cameras computers etc. Tree surgeons are very good at breaking this type of kit, so hopefully lots of people will find it useful:thumbup1:

The original poster asked about the new stihl caps on all saws. i.e has anyone else spilt oil and fuel We all know its mainly the oil cap on the ms200t that is the main offender. Even I who constantly gets oil down me leg from the OIL cap on the ms200t ONLY – have never had a problem with the fuel caps, I like skyhuck fail to see how you can get a fuel spill. I reckon about half the people who have posted recognise a design fault, resulting in oil all over the floor, your leg, and your saw – (surely a potential hazard, by the way) The other half go one of two ways- - There is no problem at all and the first 50% are all dumb -They recognise that it’s a bit tricky but deal with it and don’t see it as a design fault. and also think the first 50% are all dumb. So what does this say about all of us, Why can’t we get a consensus?, Where do we go from here? The last few posts may be shouting the loudest... so does the squeaky wheel get the oil?

First retrieval attempt – put in a photo machine and it says – card shagged, so no luck as yet. Thanks for putting some pictures in Yve, that shows what I mean about the olives, and yours is a more spectacular example than any I had anyway. There were also Oranges and Lemons full of their second fruiting in February. Everyone has some fruit trees so you just pick em straight off the tree in the morning’s (orange juice) and the lemons in the evening for the G&T, from the G&T trees To answer your q’s Dave. Yip orgiva is about an hour south of Granada, in southern Sierra Nevada, known as Alpujarras They were just doing all the quite small street trees while I was there, so step ladder into crown, stand in crown and pollard 360 degrees (no PPE, rope etc). Little red chainsaw possibly an echo. Species, don’t know, only bark and form to go on, Not prunus, poss sorbus ? It was council carrying out the work, so quite like here really. (couldn't resist) They put the trimmings in skips, no local chipper technology available. They were leaving stubs about a foot long, not cut to nodes, and about 3-4 inch diameter, cutting regrowth about 8-9 feet long. The stubs had tears, but where cut right back, they weren’t flush cutting and were doing quite decent pruning cuts. Also used silkie saws, no axes this time but I know the old boys still use small axes for pruning olives, and younger people use silkies. Olives are normally butchered, when being reduced from overgrown to bring em back so to speak. They take any kind of brutal treatment. I did have photos to show this. Some massive euckys we took down about seven years ago when I lived there, (I was told) had vega sized regrowth from stumps. A vega is a roofing beam. Couldn’t go see as track washed out by floods, and had lost the camera by then anyway. Lots of landslides going on, with very big boulders involved, so quite scary at times. Treeworld, sounds like you had a good time in spain, I rate the spanish very highly too, very tranquilo folk they are.

:001_smile:Sorry Dave, perhaps I should have titled it differently. There's still hope as I have the card from it, which was very wet indeed. Got back late last night so haven't figured out retrieval technology just yet.

I was in Spain the last couple of weeks (Orgiva Alpujarras). And was on a mission to get loads of pics for you all. The town I was in had people pollarding trees up ladders and hanging on with chainsaws etc, which I photographed. Also ancient olives with amazing shapes, and general basic spanish pruning methods. I was building up quite a nice lot of photos when I lost my camera. Went back next day to look for it and it was where I thought I lost it. We'd got the car bogged down in all the mud and rain and I had dropped it when pushing it out. It spent the whole night underwater in one of our tyre ruts. The only positive being that it had clearly provided some traction which aided in getting the car unstuck. So here endeth pauls spanish arb thread, just thought I'd let you know I tried.

Fair enough Andy and Rupe. I Just wanted to make that point. It gets into all the variables there are in your overheads. I don't undercut the opposition to win jobs as the going rate for proper tree surgeons round my way isn't great anyway and I wouldn't do it for less than they do. I probably make more profit as % turnover than some of them, but my day might be harder due to less gear etc. They however, have to do more jobs than me because of higher overheads. This is all the proper tree surgeons. I don't worry about the cowboys, If theyr'e that desperate to make a living, then good luck to them is my view, as much as I hate seeing all the butchered trees......... Some done by the way by tree surgeons with signed up vans, loads of gear, TW150 in tow etc. I'm going in circles now so will stop there:001_smile:

Playing devils advocate a bit here. But I have an objection to the linking of spending lots of money directly to profesionalism. If you buy into masses of gear, insurances, and what not then isn't there an element of choice in that? I run on the cheap, I really don't need a lot, but I can do decent tree work. I'm not a cowboy, but I don't throw as much money at it as a lot of you lot seem to do. My point being not to criticise the way others run their business, but to introduce the element of choice point that I'm trying to make.