nod

:thumbup:

Hey Gollum Your reasoning is very sound based on the polyprop rope being used as a climbing rope. If it is being used as a rigging rope & is marked with a BS and/or SWL then not. There are no EN standards for rope used for rigging & therefore no CE certification is required. This is the same for much of the rigging kit we use. This is not, however, my opinion Nod

Hey Guys My feeling is that there are two conversations taking place here!? On the one hand, Andy(Treequip) is correct in saying that the kit cannot be failed on the basis of it not being fit for purpose if it is, in fact, in good functional condition. At manufacture the product must have met strict manufacturing & testing procedures for it to have passed the European Norm (EN)standards & therefore have been certified with an EN number & CE certified. LOLER is looking, primarily, at the condition the kit is in at the moment in time the inspection is carried out. On another hand, our industry relies on specific guidance from a variety of organisations that are prominent in areas of safety etc, AFAG, HSE, Arb Assoc. This guidance, kind of, becomes the unwritten regulation & would certainly be referenced should a matter come to court where clarification be required of how/what we should do when carrying out our work duties. Bear in mind that at least one of these documents states that triple action auto locking connectors should be used at all points of primary attachment to a climbing system; not the exact words. The lanyard in question can be used as a work position lanyard (when working at the outer canopy) or as a restraint lanyard (when doing changeovers etc). Within these two examples the equipment is being used differently; in one it is a secondary protection & in the other it is primary. The equipment should therefore meet the standards & guidance for its specific use. Back to the LOLER inspection. There is a requirement for advice to be given within the context of the inspection should it be deemed necessary by the inspector. The advice in this case should be that the equipment should not be used as primary support based on the guidance as supported by AFAG, HSE etc documents but is good to use as a secondary work positioning tool. There really should be no grey area within this debate as legislation & industry guidance are really very clear. If, as an industry we understand what we ask of our equipment with greater precision we would likely be in a position were the application would guide our choice through knowledge. I'm gonna stick my neck out now... By & large we are an industry that is somewhat illiterate in the face of technical understanding, often using hearsay, hereditary knowledge & peer pressure as the defining factors of how we come to our PERSONAL beliefs which then dictate our choices. Sadly the technical understanding is out there but it's too long winded or has come from a source that's up there own @rse or something else reason why not to engage with it. I know it's a bit of a minefield but it is possible to negotiate it, for sure! Be careful of opinions because that's all they are, & it's nearly always possible to get to the bottom line when it comes to asking a question about anything you choose to..... so long as you pursue the answer to its end. We should all be considerate of where we turn to when seeking out our new knowledge base. We'll find that this place changes as time goes on from workmates, foreman, bosses, industry peers, shop keepers wherever, but be sure to see it the end. Arbtalk is a phenomenal resource & should be lauded as such but don't forget that our voices are only opinions based on whatever we choose to remember of everything we thought we had learned & limited by everything we choose not to hear! And maybe most importantly what we hope that others will think of us!!!!?!!!??

It's my understanding that LOLER is in place in order that equipment is systematically checked for correct function & condition, therefore deeming it fit to be used. This is carried out at pre-use, weekly & 6 monthly inspections. That's it! EN are a series of standards that manufacturers will aim at reaching or surpassing, which lay down a series of characteristics that the product will adhere to & be governed by. Correct function is therefore in the realm of the manufacturer & can be changed by the design of the product so long as it stays within the constraints of the EN standard. If a controlled slow closure of the carabiner gate is not part of the manufacturers testing then it's in the realm of the user/inspector to decide whether or not this is applicable. I don't believe this test is advised in any arb guidance. So, as an industry we can speak with a single voice & encourage manufacturers to design in accordance with our demands which are of course not necessarily in line with the controls as laid down in the EN standards that seem to be control the kit we are offered. I feel that until we have a specific set of standards that are 100% applicable to our industry, & not borrowed from elsewhere, we will always come across these incongruities with equipment use & testing. :001_smile:

I'm with WeeDee on this with the addition that you could easily damage the rope if it doesn't work. Get a decent friction tube & give the load to the rigger!

I've come across this characteristic in carabiners from most manufacturers ( DMM, ISC, Petzl, Edelrid) & when discussing the matter have been told, 'That the manner in which we ( arb industry) test carabiners is not in line with the manufacturers guidance on proper function'. I'm not trying to defend any no functional biners but if, as an industry, we create test regimes outside of manufacturers & EN standards approval surely these disagreements will always occur? All manufacturers will be blamed at some time or other but what we know, from the HSE Research paper, is that the biggest failing of carabiners is through not keeping them clean. Incidents of equipment failure are rare.

In light of the recent thread closer I thought it would be interesting to discuss what people think the work they do is worth! I mean really worth in relation to the other industries, other countries etc. Obviously any discussion won't have bosses & clients running to the tissue box to quell tears of sympathy or to the cheque book either, for that matter. But I think that it is quite relevant to a sense of well being & content in the work place. We are all underpaid but we need to get a grip on the fact that it won't change overnight. Is it a chicken & egg thing that we want to get paid top dollar, at the same time we want to pay bottom dollar for top dollar supplies? What say you? Good People!

Hey Marc We are very short of work in recent times, would you be interested? Myself & Simon who has 4/5 years under his belt. Cheers Nod

I'm sure there is not an arb who studied at Merrist Wood who doesn't know of this tree. Spread the word & maybe it can be saved!! Centuries-old oak tree set to be cut down - News - getsurrey

Alright Carl? Are they just waiting to be feathered now?

Hey Folks Just wanted to let you know that our climbing trip to the Gambia is ON! Flights booked today &, I guess the clock is now ticking:thumbup1: We aim to set in motion the wheels of a schools project that is run by the Eden Project in Cornwall called Gardens for Life; it basically connects schools within the UK to those in less privileged parts of the world & we are visiting an area in the Gambia that is part of the project. Unfortunately, due to reasons out of anyone's control in the Gambia, the project has ground to a halt & we hope to resurrect it by making a financial donation that will enable to refloat the project for a period of time in which an infrastructure can be created to sustain it for years to come. One of the earliest signees to this trip was RobArb from the Arbtalk forum. Rob set himself a personal goal in order that he may raise awareness for the project & hopefully a few bob to boot. He decided to commit to riding the distance from his home to the Ballabu in the Gambia on an excercise bike at home, no mean feat when the distance is in excess of 6000kms. I know he's a good bit over 4000 now & no doubt fit as a butchers dog with it. Anyhows, I just wanted to bring this to the attention of anyone interested in making a donation in recognition of this effort. Any donations will be given 100% to the Gardens for Life project in the Gambia. Please feel free to check the link & look for the yellow donate button on the site. Arbography As well as paying for the trip out of their own pockets each of the guys are also making a personal donation in thanks & respect for being allowed to climb some of the sacred trees within the Ballabu Conservation Project perimeters. Many thanks Nod

Where abouts is the tree? I'm in the Byfleet/Weybridge area tomorrow & would be keen to drop & have a butchers. Cheers Nod

Hey Fellas If you post me a PM I'll send you the details for the next workshops. The clubhouse we use is free again after 15/3/13 so there'll be a few dates coming up. Cheers Nod

Hey Adam Can the LOLER inspector, if he doesn't know his beans he's not worth paying! Nod

Hey Joe (where you going with that gun in your hand!) Sorry, couldn't resist :-) Are you referring to the Anthron ascender? Made by the Czech manufacturer in Lubljuna. If so, I have used them for the past eleven years & they have never failed me.... come to think about it I probably wouldn't be typing if they had! Anyhow, I have no complaint, they are comfortable as a single or taped together as a doubled unit. Certainly not as ergonomic as the Petzl Ascentree but without the pinching of the base of the little finger that you get with the Petz. I guess it depends on who you use them, footlock or ropewalking. A general thumbs up. Cheers Nod

Just thought to pop the question of whether the good arbtalk folk thinks that whip & stitch is preferable to just whipping or just stitching & why? Also, what is the significance of the positioning of the whip/stitch? Obviously I have some thoughts regarding this but really want to see if the melting pot can distill some fresh insight. Cheers Nod

Hey Demon How did it turn out splicing the GEcko in the end? Just about to sit down to start three in a row so I'll leave any tips it I stumble across mentionable thoughts. Cheers

Thanks for all of your replies & PM's regarding the upcoming workshops. I'm waiting on the venue getting back to me with available dates & will reply again once these dates are set. Cheers Nod

Hey Folks Some of you may have read an earlier thread regarding our visit to the Gambia, west Africa last February; others may be following the exploits of forum members who are currently in South Africa climbing. For those who didn't already read or watch, here's a short utube clip of our trip. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27xv0NVYz2M]Tree climbing in Africa 2012 - YouTube[/ame] Basically we are returning in May for part 2 of the adventure & there are a few places left for those interested in climbing large trees in west Africa. Please PM me with details & interest. Regards Nod @ Treeworker

I know that many of the forum members have asked about splicing workshops either on threads here or directly to my PM or email address; sorry to those who've either waited too long or received no reply. I will, however, be running workshops through the next few months in both 16 strand & double braided ropes, & hollow braid if the needs must. What I'd like to get an idea of is the numbers of individuals interested in attending & which rope type required. I will be setting a number of dates which will require a minimum number of attendees for the day to run. Costs are £125+vat including the use of tools for the day & lunch. Location is north Bucks approx 35 mins from Junction 14 of the M1 & 20minutes from Junction 9 of M40. 1 hours drive from both London & Birmingham. Let me know either here, PM or at [email protected] Many thanks Nod @ Treeworker

The manufacturer advise is to only use the cinch with dynamic line because it was designed as a climbing belay & during this scenario dynamic lines are a must. Huge forces can be generated during a fall & this force is absorbed by the rope rather than your body, which would not be the case if using any EN 1891 type rope. Regards Nod

I have a job on near Chipping Norton & have been let down big style. Is there anyone, ground staff, climber? Looking for a couple of days? Text me please 07971 830331 Thanks Nod

Hey Folks The debate is quite interesting in so much as; that which comes to light is that we are often lead into making decisions of what kit to use in what application by people who do not have either the practical experience or theoretical understanding of the work we do. Blindly pushing a situation to failure is not ideal, particularly if it arrives with surprise! If we know that an application WILL generate enough heat to damage the kit it creates a choice; (i) use different kit, or; (ii) reduce forces to generate lower friction heat ! I understand what Tuttle is saying but if friction heat is generated then the intrinsic character of the fibres will only deal with that heat to a point. When that point is reached failure will occur to varying degrees until the rope melts through. You could insert a heat protective sleeve but the heat still has to go somewhere, & this could be through the sleeve & into the rope. Not an ideal solution. I'm not sure what the Yale video is actually saying? Both ropes were knotted, so as the load beds the knot in, friction will generate heat. If the melt point is low, of course the rope will melt & fail!!!? Would you use dyneema in this way? And if it were spliced would the result be the same? There seem also to be a series of practical failings in the accident part of the video. I'm not convinced that the choice of ropes were the reason for events to unfold as they did & maybe the climber would still have been hanging upside down if his rope were dyneema. Hearsay is a dangerous mentor. Buyer beware!