nod

Hi Liam It was good to finally meet & I hope that your head did not hurt too much after our conversation. As Arbocop has said earlier, there need not be gray areas within this topic. I believe that misrepresentations of fact seem to have muddied the water somewhat. These anomalies do nothing to aid our understanding, & do even less for us as a group or industry to find clarity within the way that we are guided. CE & EN numbers seem to be bannered around by some people as a kind of power card; & for what reason I can only ponder upon in the darker crevices of my imagination. Many of the EN standards that we turn to have little relevance to the manner to which the tools or equipment are used, so where is the point in using that standard in the first place. We turn to rope standards which upon their inception never considered arborist rope use. We turn to accesory cord or loop sling standards for CE certifying ropes that are produced & designed to be used in a manner within which they are not tested. And so the saga goes on!! We discussed what CE is; the conclusion being that it is a trading standard to enable pan European trade to take place with standards being harmonized throughout that geographical region. So what happens if I'm not trading a product but a service? It's possible to see the issue with clarity, it just takes a while to work out what is clouding the view. Just best to not ask why!! Regards Nod

Hi Andy I think that any grey areas that exist on this topic are generally created due to a lack of effort put into finding out & understanding the interaction between the components that are linked to build a system. If we take it that a bend radius of 4x rope/sling diameter is required to maintain said rope/sling at full strength when connected to a piece of hardware; then surely the next step is to be sure that that radius is not compromised when building a system. Can we then presume that if a compromise takes place, i.e. a lower radius is used as a connection point, the system is flawed. If the system is flawed then surely extensive testing needs to take place before it's fair or right to say that the system in it's entirety will work together? How do climbers/riggers configure their anchor point slings? Or their connection between portawrap & sling at base of the tree? What are the bend radii involved & are these connections in some way compromised? Why do we choose to give a rigging rope the same safety factor as climbing rope? Should cycles to failure come into the topic somewhere? Is rope a tool? Do we use it as a tool? Etc etc! You can see that there are many questions which, I believe, many of us do not ask ourselves when planning systems to use. The reasons for this are many & varied. I think it's quite possible that the grey area is somewhat larger than the black or white that is often sought; & maybe, until the equipment exists that helps remove some of this grey we are left to build the puzzle for ourselves. Maybe, when the pieces of the puzzle are all there for us to put together I think that the grey will still exist. It is in our nature but why not just be honest & see things for what they are? I don't believe that it is for me to give the answers, it is for those interested to decipher & begin to try & understand what it is that's involved. At least that way it no longer exists in the realm of hearsay. Cheers Nod The straight answer is rarely as straight as one would hope!

"Don't forget if you goto 16mm double esterlon then you'll need to be running a bollard to maintain your rope as the weakest link. 14mm double esterlon or portland is the MAX you can get away with on the large port-a-wrap aaAND thats only after acounting for loss of strength at rope termination!!! Jonsie & I are soon to launch the Loler UK set deals which shall be available exclusivly from FR Jones each of which couples the technical know how with on the ground concencus & experiance. The set deals will have alot of asociated literature which will be available on-line free to all serving as an educational reference & sort of comparison chart when compiling a rigging kit. I would personally steer clear of portland braid & believe it is a false economy, Double esterlon is stronger, harder wearing & performs better I haven't met any-one who's tried both & bought a second portland You gets what you pay for! " Hello Mike After the three hours I spent getting frustrated with you on the phone the other week I really cannot believe that you'll go on with this project, guffing people out with half baked facts. You know as well as I do that there is no pulley currently on the arb market that offers a good bend radius at the anchor side of the configuration. Or did you think I was guffing you off? Good luck I'm sure it'll do really well. Nod

Does anyone remember Yale supplying XTC 12 prespliced for many years? I wonder why it is no longer spliceable?

Hi Dean Well done on completing your locked brummel. As you've shown in the images, it's not a particularly difficult splice to get your head around & if care is taken with the taper & stitch/whipping it can be a very strong splice. I'd like to offer a few words in a general sense regarding the brummel variations, or rather working with these hollow braid 12 strand ropes & the material their made from. Here I'm thinking down the lines of tenex, yalex, nerex; the open type construction (often used to create slings in our work), as opposed to XTC12 type construction (often used for climbing & rigging in treework). The strongest 12 strand splice is a tuck & bury - 42x rope diameter should be buried, of which 50% is tapered. This is not a brummel type splice. The brummel requires a single pass before burying 21x rope diameter. The locked brummel passes through twice ( as already mentioned) before burying the same 21x diameter. Over the years different retail companies have offered eye to eye slings/hip prussicks which have a bury that is roughly half the recommended 21x rope diameter. I've seen them as short as 8x rope diameter. The problem that I see here is unless you have an understanding of the morphology of different splices, as a climber, you won't necessarily perceive any difference. Kind of like, " It's just a sling & I use it in this or that fashion"! Another aspect to this is that on these short buries the stitch/whip is absolutely crucial to safe functioning of the splice. If the stitch/whip fails to do its job, what is holding the splice together? You then couple this with the alternating motion of being tight then slack that a friction hitch is subjected to & issues can arise quickly. This type of failure has happened. Recommended measurements change for the type of fibre that the rope is made from. Fibre that ropes are made from have their own inherent qualities; strength, elongation, abrasion etc. This needs also to be borne in mind when heading into the realm of splicing or knotting rope. A good knot or splice for one rope is not necessarily equal when tied on a rope with the same construction but made of different fibre. For instance the technora that your Ice Tail is made from should have a bury of 63x rope diameter on a tuck & bury splice. This is because of the difference in its inherent qualities when compared with polyester, for instance. I have followed this forum since before it became a web presence & believe that it is a great resource where we can interact on all sorts of levels & in different ways. And as many of you know, through reading here, attending workshops or having spoken with me at shows that splicing has become a part of what I do. I believe that it is something that we should do, as people who work with rope & cordage almost every day of our lives. We should at least try & understand what it is that we hang our lives on, surely? And learning to splice rope is a way in which we can begin to do this, in a way it ties us all the rope men that have gone before us & will come after. I hope that the current interest in rope splicing continues to flourish because we can learn alot & maybe change the way standards are forced upon us without being questioned. But if we don't look deeply enough into the subject there are things that can happen without being able to understand why. Things that give strength to the argument that we should only use manufacturer produced splices. I can only urge those interested to consider whether or not this is the route to take. Happy splicing Cheers Nod

Dear Arbtalkers & casual visitors Since the late part of 2003 I have hopped from pillar to post in the attempt to bring new products to the attention of the arbos & tree climbers. As much as anything this has been an effort driven by the need to test new kit out for myself. If the kit turns out to be any good then onward we go & try to bring it to the marketplace. Treeworker was started out of the need for real & truthful information about kit & techniques, which was sadly lacking in the retail field. The main thing that has changed in this time is the access to information via the internet but the knowledge hasn't changed drastically. Some bits of kit have been refined but in essence there is nothing ground breaking that has come about in this time. I'm sure that many would disagree with this but I believe that it's only refinements to that which already existed. Due to European legislation it has, at times, been a tiresome job just to reach the point when finally a really decent product comes to the market. Poison Ivy rope is one of these products! A little over 4 years ago I approached B-Trac with the view to bring Poison Ivy to the wider market. I banged my head until it hurt so much I gave in. Eventually I approached Sherrill in the US; "I want this rope but my head hurts what can we do?" Sherrill tell me, "Sorry we can't do business because of the tie in with Vermeer & we can't upset the boat!" From that point on, at every opportunity I remind Sherrill that we want the product until 18 months ago when the ice began to crack a little. Finally we get to the point 12 months ago where I have an order for 14,000 feet of rope. I'm told that it's been CE certified by the manufacturer & am just waiting for the certification copy to arrive with me. 5 weeks pass before I receive a mail apologising for the delay & that it seems that the rope doesn't have a CE cert after all. Now I need to ask myself whether this has gone too far, should I back out & be done with it? I decided to keep pushing until finally a few months ago CE certification was granted & finally I can let you know that POISON IVY rope ( previously available only as a non CE product)is available from TREEWORKER. It has been a long road but hopefully one that was worth treading. I hope that our customers benefit from the work that is done behind the scenes in cases like this. We are a small company with a wealth of experience, not necessarily in selling/supplying equipment but in its use. I believe that this puts us in a unique position to understand the needs of you people who are climbing each day of your working life. I no longer climb every day, Treeworker has taken that pleasure from me but hopefully this will be for your benefit if you choose so. Poison Ivy will be available to buy through the website on Friday 14th May or call me on 01296 738459 or 07971 830331 before that if you'd like any more info about this or any other product. Best wishes 'Nod' Robert Knott

Dear Arbtalkers As some of you may know, I've been out of the UK for a while now & return home (& to work) next weekend. Before I left there were a number of enquiries regarding splicing workshops so I thought I'd try to get another ball rolling so the delay is reduced once I return. The success of the double braid workshop, that was run for the first time in February, was such that I'd like to make this a regular part of our training calendar, particularly considering our imminent delivery of CE certified Poison Ivy & the shift that has taken place the use of double braid ropes for climbing. If you are interested in information regarding workshops then please mail me directly at [email protected]. This would be better for me as I won't have any internet connection until I return home. FYI we will be putting together a section on splicing tools on the Treeworker website which will be the most comprehensive collection of arb rope tools available from a single supplier anywhere. This has taken a long time to pull together manufacturers from all over the world so hopefully the interest in rope craft will continue to grow. Best wishes Nod

Hi Rupe That's quite a memory you have. The system I used then had way too much rope involved. In retrospect it could have been done a bit more efficiently. I've always thought of this type of system as a floating false crotch, really good for working the lower canopy. The single line removes the need to isolate a branch making set up swifter. Cheers Nod

Hello Dan I appreciate that you have joined the forum & take time out to post you thoughts, particularly regarding rope use. There are many forum users who are new to climbing & treework & may find this to be a place where information can be gathered in the attempt to turn it into knowledge. That, obviously, is a good thing & I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from interacting with this medium as they see fit. That can be left to the moderators. Your posts on this thread include a degree of untrue & misleading information. This may have come about from a discussion with your college lecturer or from other sources. I write this because you have implicated me & my company in this trail of misinformation. I'd like you to be sure that whatever info comes from Treeworker is based on fact & experience not hearsay & hope. I have no problem with saying that I don't know the answer to questions & queries. But it's generally not to difficult to find someone who does know the answer. Sorry to pick you out on this but you said that you were 'almost' 100% sure the info came from me. Whatever % was the almost was where it did arise from. Good luck & don't believe anything anyone says!!! Find it out for yourself. Cheers Nod @ Treeworker

Hi Tim Received mail, thanks. I'll be in touch Nod

Hello The workshop will be on one day only, either the 2nd or 4th. If possible PM should be sent to [email protected], purely so that it is in my system & I look at it more often than I'm at Arbtalk. Back to work now. Cheers Nod

Hi Deerman For the moment I'm not massively interested in getting into a debate about what it is to be deemed competent, that has gone around the block a bit with no satisfactory conclusion. Only to say that it seems that noise about splicer competency comes from individuals who have neither spliced modern arb ropes or have an interest in learning. Which in turn leads me to question their motivation, if only to myself. We are working on a program that will offer a traceable path of competency based on training, consolidation, academic knowledge & rope testing. As & when this is completed (which I hope will be in the first half of this year)I'm sure that it will be discussed here as well as at the Treeworker website. I have discussed this topic far & wide, and with people involved with our industry from HSE, AA, ISA, registered testing bodies to climbers, trainers etc. You name them & I've pretty much talked to them & the one thread that comes through it all. Not really interested! The reasons may be varied & that's fine but there is no mystique about rope splicing; it's been around pretty much since rope was first used & it's as strong , if not stronger than tying knots, if done correctly. Our industry currently has no competency program for splicing arb ropes. So how can someone with no competency question another who has, at least, learnt the process to produce a splice; whether that be from a book or through a practical workshop. What's the alternative? Should we go back to tying terminations? Should we bin our rope tools? And start using natural crotches, along with the extra fight that that involves? I question the competancy of anyone, who charges money as a Thorough Examiner of Arb equipment, who doesn't have the understanding to inspect a rope splice without it carrying a CE mark on a tag. After all, we are inspecting how it looks now, not when it was first unwrapped! And, if there's no spliced termination on a climbing rope should we be inspecting the users competancy in termination knot tying? And its appropriateness for the task, based on current best practice of course!....... There are many questions that could be asked. I often question the reason for the question in the first place & find this negates the need to ask! So I guess that the answer to the question could be that, having attended a one day practical training workshop in anything. Would you hope to be competant & certifiable? Or would you hope to have the gubbins with which to become competant & certifiable? I'm sure that we each have our own answer to that. Craig No previous experience is required to attend our splicing workshops. Tim Not sure if you wrote me but I've not received any PM Cheers Nod PS... CE marks, EN standards? To my knowledge there are no companies in the UK who have attempted to consolidate the spliced termination issues that exist for us within our industry. Certainly not in the same way as Drayer, Freeworker & Poel have done in Europe; whereby they have paid certification costs & tested hand splices to EN1891 termination standards. We have undergone these tests in the past but not through a notified body, so I am more than confident that our work meets the criteria. But this is not enough. (The past 12 months have been interesting to say the least; too much to go into here, sorry.) We, Treeworker, are well on our way to CE certification for a number of products including hand splices of all the most common climbing ropes in the market.

Hello Folks Just wanted to give you a heads up on the possibility of a double braid rope splicing workshop to be held between 2-4 February in north Buckinghamshire. For it to go ahead I need to get confirmed attendees as soon as possible, up to 12 people. The cost will be £80 for the day. The reason why it's short notice is that the course will be headed by Puk (Christian Kruck) & I only received confirmation of his UK dates two days ago. Puk is without doubt a foremost splicer of arb products in Europe & a fountain of knowledge. Many of you may have rubbed shoulders with him as he's been our resident splicer at trade shows since about 5 years now. Puks knowledge & understanding of ropework came directly from the pioneer of arb rope splicing, Stanley Longstaff who for many years was consultant to Samson ropes in the USA. Currently Puk does not run workshops in his native Germany so this really is a rare opportunity to learn from one of the best. If tools are required they will either be provided or can be brought at a cost price of £85. Regards Nod

Hello Folks Sorry that I've not found time to get them up on the website as yet. We do have series 2 in stock with series 1 lined up in the not too distant future, i hope. Cheers Nod

If anyone is interested in attending the workshop on 16th november then please mail me your contact details to [email protected] & will send them the info sheet & sign up form. Cheers Nod

Hello Bob I have just received the second series & am awaiting delivery of the first. I have a meeting with the webtech on Monday & hopefully we'll up & running to buy on line then. There will be an introdctory cost of £50 for the month of October rising to £60 after that. Call me if you like but keep an eye on the website homepage. Cheers Nod

Good Afternoon Folks I would like to take the opportunity to say thanks to everyone who helped make the AA event at the weekend such a good one. I feel very fortunate to still be a part of the industry, to have such good people around me who tell it to me straight, to see excited & puzzled faces looking at the swathes of choice that is currently on offer, to be able to offer direction to those who stand at the crossroads & chew the fat with those that already choose a path for themselves. All this & much more make all of the hard work worth it. We may always go away from such events with negative aspects but hopefully if feedback is directed in the right direction change might come. I hope for the event to become worth more than a place to chat & chill but it takes input from all corners for it to happen. I got to see 2 presentations where there were about 20 in attendance; considering approximately 2000 counted through the gate & the level of experience & knowledge being offered, I think that's poor? With the cohesive feel the show had this year I think there is a definate possibility that it could now go from strength to strength. How about a constructive discussion on what could be added/removed to help make our industry annual event better? Many thanks Nod

Hey Mistahbenn Those ali thingies are swag ends for putting eye into steel cable. I would suspect that if you tracked down a company dealing in large quantities of <10mm cable you may also find those ali thingies by the thousands. Nod

Fantastic stuff, keep it up! I'm sure that we've all made mistakes when it comes to deciding when & how much we remove from trees if requested to do so by clients or by compulsion on our own trees. Some, but not all, will use observation as a personal tool to affirm what they think they already know. This, I think, can often be difficult if not impossible because we mostly function in a completely different time frame to trees & however much we try to convince ourselves we do understand them somebody one day comes out of the mist with an idea or theory that forces us to reevaluate our stance. We have, in the past, postulated about how bad non target pruning topping cuts are bad for trees but I'm sure we've all seen many trees that have suffered such approaches but have continued to grow then flourish years after. Similar pruning is often now accepted as retrenchment or veteranisation so long as the wounds are attacked with the saw again to leave a (natural) ragged finish. Through observation we have come to believe that target pruning is how we should go but how many times have you experienced that the accuracy of these efforts is not as exacting as we'd hope, i think of scots pine & elm in particular. That small V of dead wood tells the tale, not a big deal cos the continued growth means that wall 4 usual does its job eventually! My own observation on willow shows that hard spring pruning generally results in an abundance of reaction growth which rarely dies off completely. The same prescription in late summer has a very different reaction with a greatly lessened volume of growth. This noted, does not however mean the same can necessarily be applied to other species. We could derive though that dependant on the desired affect the timing of pruning may be important in decision making in the short term. If reduction pruning is little in volume I'm not convinced that timing plays such a massive role in the long term whatever the species. Whereas heavy pruning can be detrimental whenever it's carried out. Ultimately it's good to evaluate each scenario & possible prescription on the individual merits at any given time, i.e. when the clients asks for work to be carried out. We will then guide/advise them based on the limitation of our personal level of knowledge & ability to access certain areas of the canopy. For instance, I have found many climbers who are greatly challenged when it comes to reaching the outermost branch tips will often over prescribe percentage reductions, carry out unecessary thinning operations & justify it in a very convincing manner. I think that what I'm trying to say is we should be guarded not to get stuck in certain ways because this could be due to our lack of knowledge rather than our preferred depth of knowledge. Stay open! Nod

I agree with the Yorkshireman on this one. I can walk into prontoprint & ten minutes later walk out with my carpentry business set up. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing the same with treework. Place your ad in YP & your now fully fledged & ready to discuss stuff with anyone who uses YP to find such services. Put your bunts on the table & within a couple of days you've got a truck & chipper; next stop is Davys Vinyl Signs & now your the looking the cream of the crop. As some have already said, the GP don't now the difference between one & another & I'm fairly sure that driving down the road none of us would either. When I did tree climbing & aerial rescue the assessor admitted that he didn't understand a quater of what I said during the assessment but that didn't change me from a surgeon to an arborist. Basically I think that if your motivation is to become highly skilled at the work you've chosen to do then you need to akin yourself with like minded folk who look for something else in the everyday mundane skills. If we're honest with ourselves we could probably improve a little more each day but we choose not to. Stay simple until your comfortable enough to move on & then when your comfortable move on again & don't ever think that moving onwards comes to an end cos that will just limit any potential that may be left. As Pete said, don't put yourself in a box; the lid might close & then you can't see out. Blah, blah, sorry! Nod

Hi TIm I think that it's possible to look at the question in a slightly different way. If an individual is being paid to assess the fitness/condition of a piece of kit that he/she doesn't understand its morphology or construction, how can he/she be deemed competant to inspect it? I'm sure many have heard stories of splices passing inspection with no whip or stitch intact! This sort of thing should not happen but it does because some people don't understand what they are looking at, & ultimately we're talking about a element of the kit bag that you hang your life in. I would welcome a section in the LOLER training that focused purely on rope technology. Cheers Nod

Hello Folks This is a heads up for all who are remotely interested in rope splicing. As you may know I periodically run workshops in rope splicing techniques. Well, on 2nd Feb I was forced to postpone a workshop due to lack of numbers, I had hoped to run it on 9th March but am sill in the position where we do not have sufficient numbers. I therefore ask that any who are interested please mail me directly at [email protected] & not via the PM on this site as I don't visit here every day. Many thanks Nod PS This could prove interesting to those who already splice & are looking for a route to recognised competancy.

Hello Folks I'm sure there are many questions relating to this new guidance, unfortunately I've not read through it yet. I will, however, ask for all & one to comment on the issue of competance as has already been mentioned. I see this as an opportunity for our industry to discuss within itself & formulate a standard. Looking forward to hearing from yous all now! Nod