Making the news today....

[Puffingbilly413]

6 hours ago, Youngstu said:

What has caused Pakistan and similar countries to be a "failed state"? If it's their culture, what has caused that culture to develop in that way? 

My thinking is that the culture of many of these countries is massively influenced by their history and for a lot of them it is a colonial history, which unfortunately involved the colonial powers taking everything they could from their colonies and transferring the resources and wealth back to Europe. Many of the countries did make some gains in term of development, but I doubt that many benefited in terms of wealth as when the colonisers went the wealth generated went with them. 

Is Pakistan a failed state? It still has a functioning government and society (different from a Western model, true, but still there).

 

Pakistan's position on one of the fault-lines of the Cold War has certainly shaped where it is now (the West supporting Afghan Mujahideen during the Russian occupation and relying on the AF-PAK border for a lot of that support 'v' a complete about turn and the Pakistani ISI switching fire to countering Western intervention against the Taliban to present day).

 

The partition of India after WW2 (in the main as a result of British promises to grant it for support against the Axis powers) did leave a lot of wealth in the 'new' states.  Granted, the gap between the poor and the wealthly in the Indian subcontinent is worse than in the West, but there's still a lot of wealth there.  Whether that has anything to do with a colonial past or nothing at all - who knows. 

 

Sorry - starting to disappear down historical alleyways.  Pakistan is definitely its own country - it gets on with or without foreign support / interference and can generally choose its own way, even against the might of US 'diplomacy'.  Others may disagree.  I just like talking about history...

[Stere]

Millionaires but also mass poverty. The goverment may have nuclear weapons but it is also weak with a huge  corruption problem and  I don't think taxes are collected hence no money to spend on modern public infrastructure, sanitation roads etc.

 

Contrasting  the huge differences in developments between  China and India is also interesting.

[Youngstu]

7 hours ago, Puffingbilly413 said:

Is Pakistan a failed state? It still has a functioning government and society (different from a Western model, true, but still there).

 

Pakistan's position on one of the fault-lines of the Cold War has certainly shaped where it is now (the West supporting Afghan Mujahideen during the Russian occupation and relying on the AF-PAK border for a lot of that support 'v' a complete about turn and the Pakistani ISI switching fire to countering Western intervention against the Taliban to present day).

 

The partition of India after WW2 (in the main as a result of British promises to grant it for support against the Axis powers) did leave a lot of wealth in the 'new' states.  Granted, the gap between the poor and the wealthly in the Indian subcontinent is worse than in the West, but there's still a lot of wealth there.  Whether that has anything to do with a colonial past or nothing at all - who knows. 

 

Sorry - starting to disappear down historical alleyways.  Pakistan is definitely its own country - it gets on with or without foreign support / interference and can generally choose its own way, even against the might of US 'diplomacy'.  Others may disagree.  I just like talking about history...

Absolutely! I assume Pakistan  was chosen as an example of a failed state as it follows its own path and it's not always in line with what Western powers would like.  

For some countries, the wars and mistreatment that lead to their formation or are key parts of their history are often scars that run deep and often influence how they are run and what their ambitions are for their future, and for some this includes taking back what they believe is rightfully theirs.

[donnk]

27 minutes ago, Youngstu said:

Absolutely! I assume Pakistan  was chosen as an example of a failed state as it follows its own path and it's not always in line with what Western powers would like.  

For some countries, the wars and mistreatment that lead to their formation or are key parts of their history are often scars that run deep and often influence how they are run and what their ambitions are for their future, and for some this includes taking back what they believe is rightfully theirs.

The Pakistan government is increasingly silencing critical voices of journalists and activists under the pretext of national security. Enforced disappearances, extrajudicial killings, and torture take place with impunity, while security forces exercise undue political influence over civilian authorities. Blasphemy-related violence against religious minorities, fostered in part by government persecution and discriminatory laws, is frequent. Authorities have failed to establish adequate protection or accountability for abuses against women and girls, including “honour” killings and forced marriage. Over 490 people have been executed since the government ended an unofficial ban on the death penalty in late 2014.

 

But yes your right its our fault for ceasing British Rule in 1947.

 

Pakistan | Country Page | World | Human Rights Watch

WWW.HRW.ORG

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The Pakistan government is increasingly silencing critical voices of journalists and activists under the pretext of...

 

 

[donnk]

Then another paragon , Bangladesh who top the world in only one area.

 

Child Marriage.

 

Yup you got it, our fault again probably.

 

Bangladesh | Country Page | World | Human Rights Watch

WWW.HRW.ORG

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The Bangladesh government has intensified its crackdown on civil society, media, and critics. Authorities have killed and...

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by donnk

[Sutton]

On 10/06/2020 at 00:17, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

It’s just the way it is.

[Youngstu]

2 hours ago, donnk said:

The Pakistan government is increasingly silencing critical voices of journalists and activists under the pretext of national security. Enforced disappearances, extrajudicial killings, and torture take place with impunity, while security forces exercise undue political influence over civilian authorities. Blasphemy-related violence against religious minorities, fostered in part by government persecution and discriminatory laws, is frequent. Authorities have failed to establish adequate protection or accountability for abuses against women and girls, including “honour” killings and forced marriage. Over 490 people have been executed since the government ended an unofficial ban on the death penalty in late 2014.

 

But yes your right its our fault for ceasing British Rule in 1947.

 

2 hours ago, donnk said:

Then another paragon , Bangladesh who top the world in only one area.

 

Child Marriage.

 

Yup you got it, our fault again probably.

And we and our governments, the UN etc should be stamping up and down and making a fuss about both of these examples, imposing sanctions etc, but should we really be involved with trying to directly change the powers to ones of our liking? Does it ever really work? 

 

These countries came into being after the British left, but are these problems because we left or did the British being there in the first place contribute to the tensions and issues that have lead to these problems?

Do you think the British should have stayed in power in India and not returned power to the people of the subcontinent?

 

 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

A little ‘erased history’ for the white privilege, Empire apologist BLM sympathisers:

 

 

Memory of Cornish coast dwellers kidnapped for slavery 'culturally erased'

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

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The memory of thousands of Cornish people who were kidnapped and sold into slavery has been “culturally erased”...

 

[Mark J]

25 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

A little ‘erased history’ for the white privilege, Empire apologist BLM sympathisers:

 

 

Memory of Cornish coast dwellers kidnapped for slavery 'culturally erased'

WWW.TELEGRAPH.CO.UK

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The memory of thousands of Cornish people who were kidnapped and sold into slavery has been “culturally erased”...

 

Aye, they've erased loads of history of the empire and its conquests too. Whack it all in a museum. If people want to learn about the slave trade/empire, then let them.
You should see what the Vikings got up to in Cornwall in 807 AD.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Mark J

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

5 hours ago, Mark J said:

Aye, they've erased loads of history of the empire and its conquests too. Whack it all in a museum. If people want to learn about the slave trade/empire, then let them.
You should see what the Vikings got up to in Cornwall in 807 AD.

Not sure I entirely grasp what I think you might be trying to convey there Mark. 
 

It’s fairly safe to say however, there isn’t a widespread, smouldering discontent amongst the Cornish towards the Vikings, nor those of African origin, on the basis of the current day interpretation of the ‘crimes’ of their long passed ancestors.  
 

Cant say the same in relation to Cornish antipathy towards the English though, that iS alive and well (perhaps not with the same degree of venom as might be experienced in Scotland, and to a slightly lesser degree Wales, but alive and easily encountered on a daily basis none the less.)

 

I frequently experience those sideways glances, that unsettling feeling of suspicion, I’m called an Emmet and generally feel like a ‘foreigner’ and a second class citizen. 
 

It might be because I’m English and have my cream first, jam on top or it might be because I’m an abrasive barsteward by nature ?

 

Think I’ll start an ELM campaign in Cornwall and see if they’ll tear down a statue of Trevithick on the basis that it’s continued presence offends me because it reminds me I’m not Cornish.....