EMERGENCY! Blood clotting stuff...

[Haironyourchest]

Just throw in this bit of info I picked up - homeostatic agents can ingress into the bloodstream and cause clots at random locations later in life - years or decades later. The chances of this happening are proportional to the amount of haemostat that finds its way into the circulatory system, generally depends on the severity and type of injury when the agent was applied.

 

For this reason I would not use the stuff, or allow it to be used on me, unless it was life or death. I bought a CAT (combat application tourniquet) instead. I reckon anything less than an arterial gusher will be manageable with Israeli bandages until the ER.

[R Mac]

Evening all, every interesting post and a lot of things to consider while we all carry out our daily tree work, if you don't mind i would like to add my two pennies worth of both advice and experience, i spend 23 years in the Royal Marines and have been on all of the recent battlefields since the late 80's to 2012. It's good to see that we're all carrying a good comprehensive first aid kits, weather it's a small personnel one on a climbing harness to a large decent one in the landy or mog, it's ok having blood stopping granules, first aid dressings etc, but the primary and most important thing is that you know how to deal with the situation, it's important to have good training in how to use the first aid equipment and carry the right kit in relation to work being carried out, but the most important thing of all is the CASAVAC PLAN, you could be in a remote forestry block to a town centre next to an A&E, if you don't have a plan then your basically ******. If you work on something called the golden hour then you would have tried your best to keep yourself but probably your work mate alive, the first ten minutes is spent giving life saving first aid, this is where the good training comes into play, ABC, stop the bleeding etc, the next 50 minutes is getting the casualties to some sort of primary health care, i.e paramedics or A&E air ambulance etc, throughout the time constantly assessing the casualty, your extraction to safety may be on foot using a stretcher or by vehicle to a road point, ora simple marking of a helicopter landing site, but if it's not planned and if the team is not briefed it wouldn't work, all you will get is a lot of panic and confessed people and may be a very bad outcome, so next time you fill out the site or daily risk assessment take a couple of minutes to make a plan and brief people up, you never know it may save your life, i hope i haven't taught people to suck eggs, thanks and kind regards John.

 

:thumbup1:

[Joe Newton]

Just throw in this bit of info I picked up - homeostatic agents can ingress into the bloodstream and cause clots at random locations later in life - years or decades later. The chances of this happening are proportional to the amount of haemostat that finds its way into the circulatory system, generally depends on the severity and type of injury when the agent was applied.

 

For this reason I would not use the stuff, or allow it to be used on me, unless it was life or death. I bought a CAT (combat application tourniquet) instead. I reckon anything less than an arterial gusher will be manageable with Israeli bandages until the ER.

 

 

Can you provide links to this?

 

Celox (and equivalent) is designed for situations where other means of stemming blood flow are ineffective.

 

It's not the first this you grab at the sight of blood. In a worst case scenario I'd certainly rather have it in my tool kit than not.

[Haironyourchest]

Can you provide links to this?

 

Celox (and equivalent) is designed for situations where other means of stemming blood flow are ineffective.

 

It's not the first this you grab at the sight of blood. In a worst case scenario I'd certainly rather have it in my tool kit than not.

 

To tell the truth I may have jumped the gun a bit - loads of rumour on various forums but scant hard evidence. Eventually I found this:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27487507

 

 

Format: AbstractSend to

Pol J Vet Sci. 2016;19(2):337-43. doi: 10.1515/pjvs-2016-0041.

Safety of the long-term application of QuikClot Combat Gauze, ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze in a femoral artery injury model in swine - a preliminary study.

Otrocka-Domagała I, Jastrzębski P, Adamiak Z, Paździor-Czapula K, Gesek M, Mikiewicz M, Rotkiewicz T.

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to examine the safety of the long-term application of QuikClot Combat Gauze, ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze using a swine model. The study was conducted on nine pigs weighing approximately 30 kg, which were randomly divided into three groups. Under deep anesthesia, the pigs underwent complete transverse cutting of the femoral artery in the groin region. Hemostatic dressings were left in the wound for 24 hours. The animals were euthanized 24 hours after dressing application. In each group, macroscopic and microscopic severe changes and shock symptoms were observed in the lungs, liver, kidneys and heart. Fibrino-gaseous embolic material was found in the pulmonary artery of each group and in the lung vessels of the animals from the ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze groups. In conclusion, the long-term application of the evaluated hemostatic dressings has the risk of coagulopathy and reaching the progressive stage of shock. The residues from the hemostatic dressings can ingress into the systemic circulation, thereby increasing the risk of embolus formation. Because of these harmful effects, the evaluated hemostatic dressings are not appropriate for long-term use. Future studies are needed on the consequences of the long-term application of these hemostatic agents.

PMID: 27487507 DOI: 10.1515/pjvs-2016-0041

[PubMed - in process]

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[Andyhope1977]

They need to be released periodically as not to starve whatever body part of blood to save unnecessary amputation.

We use tourniquets on the lifeboats and I had training with them in the engineers. Once you put them on... Leave them on.. Mark forehead. With date time. Do not release. Anecdotal evidence of a guy having lower limb be on for over 12hrs and still saving limb.

An army first aid or FFD is fine for cuts and scrapes, even a minor burn (if its soaked first).

 

But let's face it. If you try and cut your arm/leg off. A big fluffy plaster isn't goin to help too much. Unless you're lucky enough to have a mucker that's beside you and manages to keep calm and just react.

The celox that melts skin (can be arsed searching the actual name) is awesome stuff. I was attached to the yanks in Afghan in 08. They were issued it, really fucky stuff. It's the moisture that sets it off. Even sweaty hands! I'm gonna annoy people now. I don't care about, the infection (deal with it later), the pain you're in, the scar it will leave behind or not having a medical degree to use it. If on that horrid day I or any guy I'm with needs it. They're getting it. Problem is, it's wank at arterial spray stemming. Celox tape/bandage is brilliant and certainly the next level. Watched the 'pig' on YouTube and seen someone else use it in the field. (Ohhhhhh did the lad scream before someone knocked him out). But he went home to his wife and kids, the medic packed in 1 full celox tape to deep arterial wound in the groin. I've kept a roll + gauze pad under my helmet on jobs with sharps (not just sawwork)

 

 

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[drossi1212]

For this reason I would not use the stuff, or allow it to be used on me, unless it was life or death. I bought a CAT (combat application tourniquet) instead. I reckon anything less than an arterial gusher will be manageable with Israeli bandages until the ER.

 

These celox and celox like clotting agents do have a proportionate chance of complications in later life. No doubt. Just like what's been said with sticking a CAT on. Crush injury, loss of limb in severe cases or permanent disability slight to severe. But UK someone's garden you're gonna have access to a hospital relitively quickly, golden hour. Forestry site in the highlands of Scotland you can be an hour from the main road and hours from a hospital. Out of reach from a heli rescue (thinking weather here) and the golden hour goes straight out the window. None of us should (and hopefully would) be reaching for the magic pack or the CAT straight away. These are last resort tools. Your choice is simply put; Death or 12% rising to 100% chance of life and full recovery. Blood clots, nerve damage, crush injuries even an amputation if god really hates you all mean you're still gonna see your kids grow up. I know what I'd be choosing.

[fen01]

If you've got a casualty with a catastrophic bleed, the golden hour is pointless, they'll bleed out in minutes and die. If you need a hemostatic agent, you need it ASAP. So what if there is a problem in 10 years? If you die without blood, ,days, weeks,months etc are irrelevant minutes matter. You don't use this stuff for sh*ts and giggles, you use it keep some alive not on anything other than a real mega gusher.

 

As a side note I had a friend who got battered by a tree (very seriously injured but no external bleeds), it was well over an hour before a paramedic got to him, 2.5hrs until any proper treatment. The nearest ambulance station was 20mins walk away. Lesson, don't rely on anyone else until they are there and response times will be slower than you would like.

 

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[Andymacp]

Just throw in this bit of info I picked up - homeostatic agents can ingress into the bloodstream and cause clots at random locations later in life - years or decades later. The chances of this happening are proportional to the amount of haemostat that finds its way into the circulatory system, generally depends on the severity and type of injury when the agent was applied.

 

For this reason I would not use the stuff, or allow it to be used on me, unless it was life or death. I bought a CAT (combat application tourniquet) instead. I reckon anything less than an arterial gusher will be manageable with Israeli bandages until the ER.

 

 

That's fair enough but have you ever tried to apply a tourniquet to the abdomin, groin, neck,jaw

[AHPP]

This thread needs more jomoco. He's probably busy re-attaching his groundsman's arms in the field or something.

[Mesterh]

Just throw in this bit of info I picked up - homeostatic agents can ingress into the bloodstream and cause clots at random locations later in life - years or decades later. The chances of this happening are proportional to the amount of haemostat that finds its way into the circulatory system, generally depends on the severity and type of injury when the agent was applied.

 

For this reason I would not use the stuff, or allow it to be used on me, unless it was life or death. I bought a CAT (combat application tourniquet) instead. I reckon anything less than an arterial gusher will be manageable with Israeli bandages until the ER.

 

To tell the truth I may have jumped the gun a bit - loads of rumour on various forums but scant hard evidence. Eventually I found this:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27487507

 

 

Format: AbstractSend to

Pol J Vet Sci. 2016;19(2):337-43. doi: 10.1515/pjvs-2016-0041.

Safety of the long-term application of QuikClot Combat Gauze, ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze in a femoral artery injury model in swine - a preliminary study.

Otrocka-Domagała I, Jastrzębski P, Adamiak Z, Paździor-Czapula K, Gesek M, Mikiewicz M, Rotkiewicz T.

Abstract

The purpose of this study was to examine the safety of the long-term application of QuikClot Combat Gauze, ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze using a swine model. The study was conducted on nine pigs weighing approximately 30 kg, which were randomly divided into three groups. Under deep anesthesia, the pigs underwent complete transverse cutting of the femoral artery in the groin region. Hemostatic dressings were left in the wound for 24 hours. The animals were euthanized 24 hours after dressing application. In each group, macroscopic and microscopic severe changes and shock symptoms were observed in the lungs, liver, kidneys and heart. Fibrino-gaseous embolic material was found in the pulmonary artery of each group and in the lung vessels of the animals from the ChitoGauze PRO and Celox Gauze groups. In conclusion, the long-term application of the evaluated hemostatic dressings has the risk of coagulopathy and reaching the progressive stage of shock. The residues from the hemostatic dressings can ingress into the systemic circulation, thereby increasing the risk of embolus formation. Because of these harmful effects, the evaluated hemostatic dressings are not appropriate for long-term use. Future studies are needed on the consequences of the long-term application of these hemostatic agents.

PMID: 27487507 DOI: 10.1515/pjvs-2016-0041

[PubMed - in process]

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:lol:

 

Missocial media info at its best.

 

Someone creates a theory against all previous expert knowledge which soon becomes fact. Not having a go at you it just makes me laugh.

 

If im about to bleed to death please have a go at using a life saving tested and approved product rather than think, "Im sure some bloke down the internet said this is a bad idea, so err sorry mate best to leave you to die"