College and what the industry really needs

[Dan Curtis]

is there place for them to learn in an industry that's built on efficiency?

 

Yes, depending on the candidate. If they're willing to listen and learn. One problem I encounter is repeatedly having to tell someone the same basic things, one person in particular the same things over more than a two year period. The same basic things that imo should have been taught from day one.

 

If they're starting their learning with the college, get them working efficiently from the start. I know there aren't time pressures in a learning environment but you could get into them the idea of a tidy site, tidy wood, brash cut and stacked from the tree in armfuls. If they start off by knocking bits all over the place and under no pressure to keep things moving, it'll be harder to adjust once they get into a commercial environment.

[MWArb]

Yeah similar to QCF. As I understand it this relates to the 'theory' side of the job as you progress up through the educational ranks. The industry needs something similar to QCF where you can only progress once you have relevant experience and time on the job, this is how irata works but with arb you can get more bits of paper than WH Smith after a 6 week course

 

This has to be taken into consideration long term I think.. The only difficult issue I can see is resources.. we would need placement's for large numbers of students and a way of monitoring their progress as well as a way of instructing them in house with enough real work for them to do with us as well.

forgive my ignorance, how do irata structure it? are there enough jobs for all students throughout an academic year? or am I thinking on the wrong time scale?

[MWArb]

Yes, depending on the candidate. If they're willing to listen and learn. One problem I encounter is repeatedly having to tell someone the same basic things, one person in particular the same things over more than a two year period. The same basic things that imo should have been taught from day one.

 

If they're starting their learning with the college, get them working efficiently from the start. I know there aren't time pressures in a learning environment but you could get into them the idea of a tidy site, tidy wood, brash cut and stacked from the tree in armfuls. If they start off by knocking bits all over the place and under no pressure to keep things moving, it'll be harder to adjust once they get into a commercial environment.

 

I think the only means to do all that we need to with them, is the shift to longer and more often practical sessions you yourself have clearly found a few that are hard to install skills into, the same is inside the college system as with all other subjects i'm sure.. the three level structure proposed in future may start us towards more working time and classrooms free for higher levels learning the theory.

it will always be a struggle to get those academically good to chose a level 1 or 2 when they can do a level 3 and I believe we can be stronger in our advice on that.

with more doing the levels one and two I believe it'll be hard for someone with a one year level 3 to find work over lads and lasses who have learned well practically over more sessions on the lower level. This could long term help ward against joining the system higher up.

[JaySmith]

This has to be taken into consideration long term I think.. The only difficult issue I can see is resources.. we would need placement's for large numbers of students and a way of monitoring their progress as well as a way of instructing them in house with enough real work for them to do with us as well.

forgive my ignorance, how do irata structure it? are there enough jobs for all students throughout an academic year? or am I thinking on the wrong time scale?

 

No I think you are on the right lines. I don't have irata qualifications but did look into it before and if I remember correctly you did you level 1 training, you then had to get 1000 hours experience and a years practical experience before you could study for level 2. The system I feel works better as it means you get on te job training and experience before progressing upwards.

 

I understand what you mean about resources etc but surely something basic like saying you have to have 6 months with a cs38 before you can move to cs39 and then more experience before moving to cs41 etc.

 

I think there are enough jobs out there, things are on the up and everyone seems busy. I think the apprenticeships run on the right lines, four days at college then one days experience on the tools. However some kids just don't have any common sense and clearly won't make it. For an employer it means you get a cheap brash rat to train up bit when I think back to the last apprentice we had for a month a let go, he was late three out of four days, didn't know how to use a rake and couldn't follow basic instructions so why invest time and money training him up. Obviously three are good lads out there but they seem few and far between. This was the second apprentice we've had in two years and both were cut from the same cloth!

[JaySmith]

I think the only means to do all that we need to with them, is the shift to longer and more often practical sessions you yourself have clearly found a few that are hard to install skills into, the same is inside the college system as with all other subjects i'm sure.. the three level structure proposed in future may start us towards more working time and classrooms free for higher levels learning the theory.

it will always be a struggle to get those academically good to chose a level 1 or 2 when they can do a level 3 and I believe we can be stronger in our advice on that.

with more doing the levels one and two I believe it'll be hard for someone with a one year level 3 to find work over lads and lasses who have learned well practically over more sessions on the lower level. This could long term help ward against joining the system higher up.

 

Not being funny but does it come down to brain capacity?! If someone has the aptitude for a level 3 technically they should be able to learn quicker and follow instruction better. I would rather have a level 3 on the team with little experience than a level 1/2 who has been at college for a year who should be practicably competent as experience has shown the two level one apprentices we've had haven't been worth a.....!

[devon TWiG]

Most colleges are offering training in Arboriculture , which covers a far wider range of subjects than what is required to be a Tree surgeon , the main and practical side of the industry . Merrist Wood used to run a 10 week Tree surgery course which actually provided a more practical based training . The amount of knowledge expected to be able to work in the industry nowadays is higher than it has ever been and growing all the time ... The amount of certificates of competence is quite staggering for some one just starting out ! However in my experience recently qualified students have taken up to date knowledge and ideas out in to the industry , bringing latest gear etc to the attention of colleagues ( less so nowadays perhaps as people gain knowledge through internet etc ) when I did my first training in the mid 80's the prussik loop had just replaced the old 3 knot system , just look at what is available now !! the main thing that always seemed to be lacking in so many students ( and industry workers ) is physical fitness and a healthy lifestyle !

Edited December 18, 2014 by devon TWiG

[MWArb]

Not being funny but does it come down to brain capacity?! If someone has the aptitude for a level 3 technically they should be able to learn quicker and follow instruction better. I would rather have a level 3 on the team with little experience than a level 1/2 who has been at college for a year who should be practicably competent as experience has shown the two level one apprentices we've had haven't been worth a.....!

 

The issue here is entry requirement for level 3 is a level 2 or equal (not necessarily in same subject) so learner can be totally capable of level 3 knowledge but struggle to practically apply themselves.. this is a species issue I feel.. we can't all be good in many areas.

[MattyF]

So what do you have to have to get on a college course these days ?

[treequip]

So what do you have to have to get on a college course these days ?

 

A pulse and grant funding eligibility:laugh1:

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Should we not recognise and accept responsibility for our separate roles here?

 

There has to be an acceptance that the mundane drudgery (brash dragging, throw lines, being 'busy', helping others) that makes a job flow has to come from those doing the job.

 

The college provides the 'academic' qualification, vocational training comes from work experience.

 

I can't think of a single industry (I haven't tried very hard mind) that gets a finished product straight from academia.

 

I still think my early suggestion of a bloody good thrashing in the very early stages would whittle out the weak of body and spirit before they are given the privilege of gaining a ticketed qualification. If you haven't got the heart for the thrashing, you clearly are not ready to progress....

 

(just to satisfy the PC brigade, when I say 'thrashing' I don't mean with a knurly stick, I mean get them cold, wet, tired, hungry (in a controlled environment) and then see who really wants to go forward.