when is it OK to physically restrain a member of the public

[aspenarb]

I think for him- they often work in dodgy areas at night -where they find dangerous cables but haven't had time to get barriers erected. They have to deal with drunks etc. The advice is you can shout etc etc but not physically restrain. I was trying to suggest this wouldn't be enough in a court of law should it get to that.

Got me thinking how I would/should deal with the pedestrian who wouldn't stop as the branch was falling. Just forward planning really. We obviously need a policy.

 

Tough one this and many here can relate to the problem, without repeating the advice given here I would add never underestimate the amount of extra staff needed to keep a dangerous work zone clear of the general public. I can think of dozens of issues we have had with dog walkers, ramblers etc that disregard barrier tape and warning signs. Really to play it safe in a publicly accessible site you probably need an extra man at every possible entry point that has a well mannered and polite persuasive demeanor, oiks dont work and normally end up in confrontation and causing more issues.

 

Bob

Edited December 29, 2013 by aspenarb

[DANWILL]

A citizens arrest is a possability,

Putting themselves & others in danger is a criminal offence .

[WelshMan]

A citizens arrest is a possability,

Putting themselves & others in danger is a criminal offence .

 

No it's not.

[Shane]

Has anyone spoken to a legal professional about this?

 

This forum is brilliant for ideas and opinion on things - people just need to be aware that we are a bunch of arborists, we aren't always going to provide a definitive answer.

 

Some of the threads on things like towing, operators licenses, employment legislation are interesting but sometimes tend to fizzle out after accusations of lies fired at each other. A lot of people (me included) often get their opinions confused with facts.

[skyhuck]

A citizens arrest is a possability,

Putting themselves & others in danger is a criminal offence .

 

It has to be an "arrestable" offence, for you to legally perform a citizens arrest.

[explorer arb]

The law states that,

 

Any person can arrest a person who is in the act of committing an indictable offence or

Anyone whom he reasonably suspects to be committing such an offence, if

it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead and

it is necessary to arrest the person for one of the below reasons,

To prevent the person in question,

 

causing physical injury to himself or any other person;

suffering physical injury;

causing loss of or damage to property; or

making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

 

There a few points to raise about the above paragraph.

 

1. What is an indictable offence?

An indictable offence is an offence that can be tried at Crown Court. Below are examples of indictable offences which are the most likely to be encountered by members of the public,

 

theft

burglary

criminal damage.

2. How do I know if I can make a citizens arrest?

 

You can make an arrest if the suspect is actually committing the offence or if you reasonably suspect them of committing it, or when the offence has been committed and you reasonably suspect them of having committed it.

 

There is no specific wording to use when making a citizens arrest. However you must inform the person you are arresting as soon as possible what you are doing, why you are doing it and what offence you believe the person has committed.

[treequip]

The law states that,

 

Any person can arrest a person who is in the act of committing an indictable offence or

Anyone whom he reasonably suspects to be committing such an offence, if

it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead and

it is necessary to arrest the person for one of the below reasons,

To prevent the person in question,

 

causing physical injury to himself or any other person;

suffering physical injury;

causing loss of or damage to property; or

making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.

 

There a few points to raise about the above paragraph.

 

1. What is an indictable offence?

An indictable offence is an offence that can be tried at Crown Court. Below are examples of indictable offences which are the most likely to be encountered by members of the public,

 

theft

burglary

criminal damage.

2. How do I know if I can make a citizens arrest?

 

You can make an arrest if the suspect is actually committing the offence or if you reasonably suspect them of committing it, or when the offence has been committed and you reasonably suspect them of having committed it.

 

There is no specific wording to use when making a citizens arrest. However you must inform the person you are arresting as soon as possible what you are doing, why you are doing it and what offence you believe the person has committed.

 

This citizens arrest is going a bit off topic, the question was, when is it ok to lay hands on and the simple answer for tree work is..............

 

Only to prevent immediate danger to the person or others.

 

If you do lay hands on, you need to be able to justify that action and if your system of work makes it inevitable or even likely you need to alter that.

 

If you cant justify your actions you are wide open to a charge of assault, I don't think "he didn't listen and walked past me" is going to do the job for you.

[White Noise]

16 weeks in prison for 1st offense:001_rolleyes:

 

Ok thats your point of view . How about said person walked through a taped off area then tripped over or was hit by a fallen branch . I,m getting sued simple . On the flip side I dont want myself or anyone I,m working with to be accountable for an easily preventable problem . Taped off areas are done so for a reason . I for one think and hope that in a court of law I would be looked on quite favourably . Most off the time its Oaps or idiots walking through taped off areas . I will always stop and help an oldie through the area

[woody3]

Ok thats your point of view . How about said person walked through a taped off area then tripped over or was hit by a fallen branch . I,m getting sued simple . On the flip side I dont want myself or anyone I,m working with to be accountable for an easily preventable problem . Taped off areas are done so for a reason . I for one think and hope that in a court of law I would be looked on quite favourably . Most off the time its Oaps or idiots walking through taped off areas . I will always stop and help an oldie through the area

 

its not my view, that's the sentencing guidelines for the lowest kind of assault

[explorer arb]

you can use reasonable force to prevent a person causing physical injury to himself or any other person, you can also arrest & retrain them using reasonable force however you you must let them know you are doing so at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

you must however believe that they could come to/ cause injury to themselves or others, if your site is merely 'taped off' without the correct barriers/ signs/ notifications you would be breaching H&S law/ guidance and this might not bode well for you but is a separate issue.

 

security of a site IS part of your obligations under H&S, your assessment may well be to employ a guard on certain sites, someone that is trained and qualified to restrain & remove people.

 

practically i find that in the words of my man "Mikey dread the man well fed" KILL THEM WITH KINDNESS!!

 

we had a job which involved closing an urban FP in stroud, a very popular cut through. The council had granted the closure, all signage & barriers were in place, as were barriers and diversion maps.

 

The RA identified disgruntled members of the public barging through barriers as a likely risk with potentially high consequences. Were to be rigging & swinging sizable sections over the path all day and the potential for small widdow-maker sections breaking off was high not to mention the ever present possibility of a silky finding its way to the ground or a climber fumbling a krab & it falling over the path.

 

all staff were advised to remain vigilant and to prevent any headstrong people from entering the drop zone by requesting verbally, referring them to the cp if possible and if necessary using reasonable force.

 

several people barged through the barriers, i dealt with all of them, all bar one group of three required no more than a verbal request to turn back even if i did have to insist several times:

 

"please the FP is closed; I am not allowed to let you past, i'd be in so much trouble if i did, besides that i couldn't live with my self were i to let you through and something fall from that tree and strike you on the head, if that climber fumbles a single steel karabiner at that height it could kill you, i could not live with my-self were something to happen to you"

 

one of the most persistent was a Buddhist woman! i repeated myself many times and raised my arms wide, sidestepping rapidly to prevent her from darting around me repeating the "PLEASE i couldn't live with my self" line she saw i was ready to lay hands on her if needs be smiled, thanked me and turned back around

 

the day before that 3 very unsavory lads came through the barriers. Exactly the same tactics nearly worked, 2 of them looked pretty intoxicated & wired, all were very verbal, 2 eventually resigned to turning back but 1 dipped his shoulder and went to barge through me, i placed my hand on him and bursted him about 1.5m backwards telling him i am not aloud to let you through, do you have any idea how bad i'd feel if some harm came to you because i let you through. he was very verbal but defiantly unsettled by the kind words and the fact that some1 was prepared to get physical with him, something that i'm not sure many people have ever done to him. his friends by this point were incessant that he should just walk round with them.

 

The boss was amazed i had gone to such lengths with 3 such burly undesirable characters, i wouldn't expect it of anyone but i was perfectly happy to physically prevent these 3 and those before them if needs be. Kill them with kindness, be polite and only resort to physical measures IF you are comfortable and ONLY when all else has failed.