Chainsaw update training to become mandatory for all operatives from Oct 2013

[Yorkshireman]

horselogger

 

there are many ways to look at this IF only a small fraction of trainers can train under the FISA umbrella

 

and that ALL foresters need refreshers , then a question arises as to how will they get it all achieved when the trainer candidate ration will be finite.

 

if as your comments suggest you feel the numbers of trainers are restricted at a potential strangle hold point then would the scheme not be doomed before it gets going.

 

just thoughts

[horselogger]

You are correct in your thoughts.. However - they have already thought of that.

 

You are OK for refresher training as long as your course is booked by 1st Oct - you might not actually do until next year though!! Many out there will already have had refreshers under the old schemes - I know a lot that have done it over the last year or so. Also anyone who has effectively up-skilled or done any courses in the last five years is OK for the time being.

 

My main issue is their line that not all chainsaw trainers are able to deliver refresher training to those in the industry therefore they are able to personally select those they feel are " up to it". What does that say about their view of the several hundred people out there who do this for a living? I also suspect those that do not feel able to do it will probably know and accept their limitations and if they don't the word soon gets round - this is a small industry. There are currently 8 people out there who have monopolised this training and you dont get into their club unless you are invited - irrespective of skill level, ability credibility or whatever. That is why this is corrupt. You wont get a contract unless you are a aid up member of FISA - irrespective of your track record and approach to safety. You cant cut on a site unless you are a paid up certified operator by them (who are totally unregulated).

 

I may be missing something but how will my paying to join FISA make me and my crew safer workers than we already are - exactly what part of access to their website or reading all the rest of the stuff is going to achieve that? Oh - I know - they can tell you what courses you can do and pay for!

 

I apologise for sounding cynical and negative about all this but it really is ridiculous that these self appointed emperors of forestry have been allowed to do this and also sad that those involved in it it, whilst undoubtedly experts in their field, have lacked the moral fibre to tell the organisers where to go for the sake of a quick few quid. They had an opportunity to do something good and instead have seccumbed to greed and self interest.

 

As ambasadors for the industry they have been part of, supported and promoted they should hang their heads in shame.

[timberfeller]

been cutting 25 years now and have more than a few tickets myself . it used to be years ago you would stack for a cutter for weeks or more and you learnt a lot by watching the skill before you . slowly you took to a bit of chainsaw work under the wing of your teacher and mate . this to me seems to work well as its gradual that you do more and more skilled tasks . then one day it all clicks and you are on your own , to improve your own skill level . now i see lads with 1 week crash course training mostly cs30 cs31 , who come to work as cutters , its shocking what they do and dont know , they are poorly trained and i cant see how after 1 week with a saw they are safe to crack on , the whole chainsaw training scheme seems rushed and flawed , just my thoughts . when i train a newbe i start by telling them to forget everything they were taught at colledge. they all to a t say they learn more in one day than what they have been shown fullstop

[combined tree services]

been cutting 25 years now and have more than a few tickets myself . it used to be years ago you would stack for a cutter for weeks or more and you learnt a lot by watching the skill before you . slowly you took to a bit of chainsaw work under the wing of your teacher and mate . this to me seems to work well as its gradual that you do more and more skilled tasks . then one day it all clicks and you are on your own , to improve your own skill level . now i see lads with 1 week crash course training mostly cs30 cs31 , who come to work as cutters , its shocking what they do and dont know , they are poorly trained and i cant see how after 1 week with a saw they are safe to crack on , the whole chainsaw training scheme seems rushed and flawed , just my thoughts . when i train a newbe i start by telling them to forget everything they were taught at colledge. they all to a t say they learn more in one day than what they have been shown fullstop

 

The idea of a chainsaw course it to teach the candidate enough to help ensure they do not become another statistic of major injury/death , it is then the responsibility of the candidate and employer to pursue onward going training .

 

Lets be honest if the course was a month long and cost 2.5-3 grand to do im fairly sure you would all be suggesting that it costs way too much and takes too long . The fact is that the suite of chainsaw qualifications are designed to suite everyone ! what would be the point in a candidate from an arb background being taught the skills of a forestry cutter and visa-versa .

 

Just out of interest do you think that you would still pass an assessment ? i mean not only practically but on the legislation , H&S and underpinning knowledge ? im not be rude when i ask this but actually its more often the case that most experienced cutters couldn't anymore as the skills set , legislation and h&S has changed hugely

[County 764]

"From October - if you want to have a FC contract you need FISA update training provided by a FISA trainer. To be a FISA trainer you have to be 'proposed' by an existing FISA trainer as apparently all the rest the chainsaw trainers out there who deliver chainsaw training under the auspices of LANTRA or the NPTC are clearly not good enough to do it and regulated, approved courses run by the awarding organisations are not good enough either. That this band can dictate who can and cannot deliver training which ultimately affects the grant of government contracts is not only unbelievable but also probably illegal (transparency, fairness and all that!)"

 

Totally agree with horselogger on this one. How can it be legal for the FC and others to only employ and award contracts to those who are FISA trained. what does this say about LANTRA or the NPTC?

 

Anybody on hear spoken to FISA? they don't like to be asked about it

#

[timberfeller]

The idea of a chainsaw course it to teach the candidate enough to help ensure they do not become another statistic of major injury/death , it is then the responsibility of the candidate and employer to pursue onward going training .

 

Lets be honest if the course was a month long and cost 2.5-3 grand to do im fairly sure you would all be suggesting that it costs way too much and takes too long . The fact is that the suite of chainsaw qualifications are designed to suite everyone ! what would be the point in a candidate from an arb background being taught the skills of a forestry cutter and visa-versa .

 

Just out of interest do you think that you would still pass an assessment ? i mean not only practically but on the legislation , H&S and underpinning knowledge ? im not be rude when i ask this but actually its more often the case that most experienced cutters couldn't anymore as the skills set , legislation and h&S has changed hugely

 

hi yes i would like to think so as been involved with utility arb tickets as well as recently as 2011 which will need refresh in 2014 . if i refresh my standard tickets of which i have 17 . im sure it will be by an assesor with less exp than myself . which just doesnt seem fair . the trainer assesors i know of are people who do it for easy money and dont do chainsaw work day in and day out themselfs. took me days last year to get a new lad to stop putting the back cut in below the front cut on his trees . i actualy had to show him a book to prove he was wrong as he swore blind thats what he was shown at the course . obviously he couldnt of been . but who on earth passed him out on his assesment . and thats true.

[NI Tree]

You are correct in your thoughts.. However - they have already thought of that.

 

You are OK for refresher training as long as your course is booked by 1st Oct - you might not actually do until next year though!! Many out there will already have had refreshers under the old schemes - I know a lot that have done it over the last year or so. Also anyone who has effectively up-skilled or done any courses in the last five years is OK for the time being.

 

My main issue is their line that not all chainsaw trainers are able to deliver refresher training to those in the industry therefore they are able to personally select those they feel are " up to it". What does that say about their view of the several hundred people out there who do this for a living? I also suspect those that do not feel able to do it will probably know and accept their limitations and if they don't the word soon gets round - this is a small industry. There are currently 8 people out there who have monopolised this training and you dont get into their club unless you are invited - irrespective of skill level, ability credibility or whatever. That is why this is corrupt. You wont get a contract unless you are a aid up member of FISA - irrespective of your track record and approach to safety. You cant cut on a site unless you are a paid up certified operator by them (who are totally unregulated).

 

I may be missing something but how will my paying to join FISA make me and my crew safer workers than we already are - exactly what part of access to their website or reading all the rest of the stuff is going to achieve that? Oh - I know - they can tell you what courses you can do and pay for!

 

I apologise for sounding cynical and negative about all this but it really is ridiculous that these self appointed emperors of forestry have been allowed to do this and also sad that those involved in it it, whilst undoubtedly experts in their field, have lacked the moral fibre to tell the organisers where to go for the sake of a quick few quid. They had an opportunity to do something good and instead have seccumbed to greed and self interest.

 

As ambasadors for the industry they have been part of, supported and promoted they should hang their heads in shame.

 

i total agree with you horselogger , this all seams to be aimed at saws users but when you look at there site most accidents involve machines not saws so what about refresher training for machine users

least they will struggle to impose refresher training on our work mates

Edited August 15, 2013 by NI Tree

[54gka]

The trouble with some of these assessors they get trained at collage and get ask to stay on to be an assessor without spending a day out in the working environment is this right

[LeeWill]

I started 12 years ago as a stacker for a second generation woodcutter (he was taught by his dad from age of 10!) Slowly learned how to cut and stack. He put me through 30-31 and encouraged me to go for my big tree cert and the 5day course for first aid. Apart from files slipping off my saw teeth as I press too hard with a fricked file, I've only had sliced fingers and bruised shins from tripping up. I've been doing a lot of hardwood felling this year and it's different. Still no accidents tho! Also, I recently got my high pole pruner (47?) cert and I asked about a refesher and was told that this would cover me. I've spoken to a couple people from the FC about training that is going on with 16-25 yr olds and it's a joke! Highly qualified after 6 months and can fell only fell 7 trees per day...and thet think that's them worked hard! Tell you something for free, if I done 7 trees per tank and was proud of that after 6 months I'd have got laughed at for weeks, called Elizabeth, and had my mobile number wrote in pub toilets saying I like men! It's all becoming a joke because all the cutters that can cut are getting old and the FC are panicking because they can't have and don't have enough good people for the 30 years of harvesting that is coming up!! You may think I kid you on, but this is a job I love. It's not what I do, it's who I am! I live and breath for felling work, and I still stack my own timber too! Sorry for the rant, sort of

[agrimog]

Tree Munky, I think you just "hit the nail right on the head", the FC are in a tizzy, cos the wont have enough manpower, they've put all there faith in harvesters and mechanical clearing, and surprise surprise, most of the plantations that are coming on stream cant be clearfelled mechanically, its to steep, or to wet, or to inaccesable , and the machinery cant get in. they know there going to have to use manpower, but dont want to admit it so they've started to try and get folk "trained" up, but there not going to get the experience....fu@k them, there plans are coming back to bite them on the ass