Why not sell a cube of wood? Novel idea!

[JayVee]

Interesting thread this. As the meddling foreigner on this thread I will throw in my opinion once again including a predictions as to what will happen with the firewood market in the UK. It's a little long, but please bare with me, I'm sure some of the pros on here will find this of interest.

 

Firstly Albedo is a savy chappy for bringing this up and he is very much ahead of the curve on this.

 

And here comes my prediction: It is only a question of time until legislation starts to affect firewood sales. The business is growing at such a rate in the UK as well as the sale of wood stoves that the bureaucrats and politicians will stick their fingers in.

 

This is how it will progress: They will set up “working groups” and pay consultants to make “feasibility studies” in to how the sale of firewood will be regulated so that the consumer’s rights are taken care of. The people conducting these studies will naturally do one or both of two things: a) look towards the EU for guidance b) Look at how countries who already have a thriving firewood sector legislate the trade.

 

If they go the “a” route they will be guided by the Eurocrats to take the “b” route. This means that the study will centre on the Nordic countries and the Baltics (EU members with thriving firewood markets).

 

In Finland where the market is massive and chock-a-block with part time and small producers, firewood (cut and split 10-12 inches) is always sold by the cubic metre. Always. This is what will happen in the UK in the future. You can fight it, you can dislike it, but you might as well get with the programme, because inevitably it is coming.

 

The question about air has been an issue on this thread. And rightly so. There is an easy solution to this. In Finland cut and split logs are sold by quoting either “loose cubic metre” or “stacked cubic metre” (“solid cubic metre” is used mainly for cord wood). There is a simple rule of thumb factor that takes into account the “air” or lack thereof so that you can easily calculate how much you are getting. That factor is this:

 

1 SOLID m3 = 1.54 STACKED m3 = 2.5 LOOSE m3

1 STACKED m3 = 0.65 SOLID m3 = 1.63 LOOSE m3

1 LOOSE m3 = 0.62 STACKED m3 = 0.4 SOLID m3

 

This is not law, but is an industry standard (there is a law for cord and longer lengths, which I refer to in another thread. That should not be confused with the above).

 

As for wetness. There are only two kinds of wood: “Seasoned” or “fresh” anything with a moisture content under 25 % is “seasoned”. (I am still referring to the market in Finland)

 

The coming legislation for the UK will not happen overnight, earliest three years probably closer to five, but if the industry does continue to grow at this rate it will inevitably come. Those traders who realise this and position themselves accordingly will survive and adapt. They can also use the knowledge of the coming changes as unique selling points and strengthening customer loyalty, by not just being a deliverer of wood, but a respected expert by the client.

 

Albedo I wish you the best of luck, you are on the right track. Oh and one more thing. The above is not meant to slate the UK industry. I am simply bringing to the debate a perspective from another market, which I hope will be of interest to the pros on this thread.

 

That’s my well seasoned loose cubic metres worth on the subject.

[ecolojim]

I like that. Not complicated, not entirely dissimilar to the American cord and face cord system.

 

Stacked cube, loose cube. Sounds good to me

[Notmegov]

Ahhh some sense brilliant!!

[Ian C]

I aggree Jayvee, and think it will be a good thing. I only sell in cubic meter bags, these get delivered to the customer and there happy in the fact that they know what there getting, i have had no problems with this system and is far better that the "load" system.

 

The industry needs some regulation IMO, the other day i spotted an ad in a local mag i advertise in so gave it a call, no land line and answered by an irish guy (nothing against the irish) he advertises logs in 1M3 bags, when i came acroos a bit dumb he said "you know the ones you get from the builders"! then i said how long are the seasoned for his relpy was......ATLEAST 10yrs!! all this for £50 per supposed cubeic meter.

[djbobbins]

As my day job I work in the electricity production industry so thought I would weigh in (pun somewhat intended) with another solution.

 

For generation, we buy solid fuel (coal and where required, wood) on a net calorific value (NCV) basis. We also provide a spec sheet in terms of size of fuel, so if this was to be applied to logs it might read like:

 

NCV not lower than 13MJ/kg

Moisture (as % of total mass) not greater than 25%

Length, width and individual weight per log: max 12", min 6" long; max 6", min 2" diameter, no individual log greater than 3kg

 

This means that the customer pays only for the energy that they can get from the logs in the condition they are delivered in, and can't be delivered a tonne of kindling, sawdust or a solid piece of stump.

 

Dry wood is worth more than wet or green, since for wet wood the customer uses a proportion of the energy they have bought making steam to send up the chimney. A customer can choose to buy green logs and season themselves if they wish. There is no scope for arguing about how it is stacked, since the delivery is made on weight.

 

The downside is that deliveries get more complex to price (since both weight and average moisture content of the delivery need to be known).

 

So there wood be a standard moisture content published, e.g. 15%, and any moisture above that content means a lower price per tonne.

 

Have a read of this:

 

http://www.videncenter.dk/Groenne%20trae%20haefte/Groen_Engelsk/Kap_04.pdf

[JayVee]

That's really spot on dj. As an indicator of value to the end client you can't get better than what you suggest. No doubt about it. However, I think many people would not put the effort in to study and understand the calculations.

 

I think the volume (cubic metres) will become the standard. For the simple reason that it is very easy to see in the minds eye. A metre times a metre times a metre is easy to "understand" it is tangible.

 

Having said that, and I agree with IC Trees on this, regulation would actually be good for the business, one of the criteria could be that firewood dealers understand and are able to explain the heat output of different woods in the manner that djbobbins states.

[likeitorlumpit]

if there were an industry body

they could fund accurate scientific tests to get calories numbers for all wood at say 2 different moisture readings

20% and green.

Would be a great source of knowledge.

And

Finally put to bed the firewood poem:biggrin:

[Dean O]

if the industry can somehow self regulate and decide on a simple soluton then i think it can/will avoid beurocracy.

or at least hold it off.

the key is simplicity....

the system jayvee describes IMO is the way to go.

any seller abusing the system in some way will merely loose his custom - wherever there is any level of regulation there will always be those that cheet it.

 

personally:

We dont do a lot of fire wood

but when i do I load the back of the wagon to a certain height (top of ali boards).

the volume is measured at 1.25 cube

however when asked I sell it at 1 cube mtre loose stacked.

 

i feel it goes someway compensates or at least addresses the air gaps

[firewood]

THe only way to go IMHO is to sell by the loose loaded m3.

 

I'm currently cracking out 10 to 15m3 per day on my jack. I therefore do not have the time or inclination to stack the logs in the back of the truck. Nor do i have time to count them in.

 

as regards to weighing them.....this requires a trip to the weighbridge (at a cost) or installation of on board scales.... more expense and more overhead.

 

most customers would not know what a ton or a m3 of logs look like anyway.

 

They can visualise a transit tipper load.

 

 

The body on the transit happily doubles up as the measuring device, holding 2.5m3. I invite the customer to measure the body to satisfy themselves as to quantity if they so wish. none ever take up the offer and I've yet to receive a complaint about short loading.

 

 

with regards to VJ's point about regulation, he is correct as all governments attempt to control and thereby trash any industry that is doing well for itself but has no political clout with which to defend itself.

 

if you are selling wood by m3 (loose or stacked) weights and measures can insist that your delivery vehicle body is officially calibrated with full and intermediate volumes (a measuring stick stuck and sealed to inside of the body.) If you sell it by the load there is naff all they can say about it.

 

therefore, currently, I sell by the load but give the customer an "approximate" m3 figure.

 

my 2p worth.

[Mesterh]

Sounds like you could be making a rod for your own back tbh.

 

The only way I could see anything being accurate is to sell by weight rather than volume.

 

Which we know is useless but a 1000kg of logs is 1000kg of logs, air spaces, quality of stacking and also uniform sizes of logs (to help with the stacking) moisture content which would require some calibrated testers I pressume can be forgotten about.

 

The best way is to sell in bags that are Xcm byXcm and loose loads that are approx X cube which is approx X amount of bags Xcm by Xcm. Well so I reckon anyway.