Men or machines.

[Saw-sick Steve]

:congrats:

 

If people don't like Tesco they don't need to go.

 

Tesco are not holding a gun to anyones head and making them go in or use the automated tills.

 

Things only succeed because people chose to use them.

So what happens when Tesco has finally eaten all the competition, or the remaining competition form a cartel and there's no choice but to use them - whether you like it or not?

Where's the choice then?

[kimtree]

i prefer machines over men any day

i used to have a workers but because the work was never consistant (feast or famine)i couldnt keep them

when i did have workers they would start thinking"theres a fortune in this game" and a couple of them started there own business.great.

 

now i have a good loader,chipper and truck and do 90% of work myself ocasionally bring in a contractor.

[Dave Martin]

So what happens when Tesco has finally eaten all the competition, or the remaining competition form a cartel and there's no choice but to use them - whether you like it or not?

Where's the choice then?

 

We are virtually there already... Tesco have huge land banks with the intention of stopping competitors building, they control the prices from the farmers they buy from (no doubt they are forming their own farms now to cut out the farmers), the weekly shopping basket is rising in price at an alarming rate. They do target other retailers to close them down..... Once again I am merely stating facts. Not saying that this is right or wrong but you do have to consider the consequences.

[skyhuck]

But why are Tesco so successful?? because people choose to go there.

 

Unless you are proposing some sort of communist state control, things are left for the market to decide.

 

I can if I so wish get all my shopping from farmers markets, small producers on line and all manner of other sources.

[Dave Martin]

But why are Tesco so successful?? because people choose to go there.

 

Unless you are proposing some sort of communist state control, things are left for the market to decide.

 

I can if I so wish get all my shopping from farmers markets, small producers on line and all manner of other sources.

 

Sometimes you think that you choose to go there but in reality Tescos have purchased every piece of land in the area where competitors could build. Its very easy to say dont stifle success but you have to think of the future consequences ... did you see the sci fi film where a large company owned all the air on the planet ?????

[skyhuck]

We are virtually there already... Tesco have huge land banks with the intention of stopping competitors building, they control the prices from the farmers they buy from (no doubt they are forming their own farms now to cut out the farmers), the weekly shopping basket is rising in price at an alarming rate. They do target other retailers to close them down..... Once again I am merely stating facts. Not saying that this is right or wrong but you do have to consider the consequences.

 

We have just had a new Sainsbury's built near us, there is also Morrison's and Asda, so where is the monopoly????????

 

If as you say they are driving up prices thats got to be good for small producers, I think the reality is that in real terms prices are falling, making it harder for small producers to compete, but the small guys have the advantage of better quality (real or perceived) and are able to tell you about how and where it was produced, which I am happy to pay a little more for.

 

I buy most of my meat from a local butcher, I can see the beef I am going to eat in the fields around my home.

 

A few years ago every one was saying our dairy industry was dying, but now its on the up, most dairy farmers are increasing the size of their heard and becoming more efficient.

 

Did you watch the Firnley-whitinstal (sp) program on chicken farming?

 

The fat woman on there did not care one bit how her food was produced, she was only interested in the price, 2 large chickens for under £5!! WTF!!

 

Unfortunately her sort make up a large proportion of the population, thats why we have soup opera's, Jeremy Kile, Big Brother, etc,etc.

 

So if we did move to state control, we could end up loosing the opportunity to buy our free range, local and organic produce, as these less discerning types may well be in the majority.

Edited August 1, 2010 by skyhuck

[Robert_S]

Machines then men to work them on minimal wage, i could then wander round tescos after getting a full breakfast in the cafe'

 

You take your money and make your choices, as huck says tesco is successfull because they offer a service that most want.

 

You can moan about how they seem to be taking over in some sinister master plan all you want but at 3am when you need some calpol for a crying kid they are a god send:thumbup:

[Rob D]

So what happens when Tesco has finally eaten all the competition, or the remaining competition form a cartel and there's no choice but to use them - whether you like it or not?

Where's the choice then?

 

 

If it's that much of an issue you could always grow your own food and veg?

 

 

They'll always be farmer type markets and other small producers out there you could go to...

[tommer9]

Tis seems to have degenerated into a Tescos argument, one which I have to say is very valid, as it is a prima fascia example of the crux of this thread. Tesco ARE NOT responding to demand. If you look at the rise of the supermarket from its first inceprion then you will see this to be the case. Through the use of product placement, the playing on human nature to the nth degree and from offering unneeded services that smaller outfits cannot, and by pushing down prices paid to suppliers whilst hiking up profits, supermarkets have established a position from which they are untouchable. Over 10 years ago Tescos passed the profit threshold at which they were legally required to be broken up, as was BT and Microsoft for exaple, but funnnily enough they werent touched, but Terry Leahy was knighted. This paved the way for the so called Big Four to eat up ANY competition they saw. They write off profits by buying huge tracts of land all over the world, ensuring that no other development can take place. They undercut any other suppliers, yet the quality of their food is way below that of local producers, with less nutritional values and higher fat and salt and sugar content, which coupled with pester power means that they have the home food market sewn up. Adjoin that with the present day social structure that has been advanced by the likes of Tescos, Oldacres, Monsanto etc etc which have all added to the yawning social divide, and the hugely powerful media machine that we have in our front rooms forcing the need for More More MOre and the ideals of Me me me, then the floodgates are open for the likes of tesco to carry on regardless.

 

Someone mentioned about jobs and how technology creates jobs. Utter piffle. The creation of wealth for the minority and misery and hunger is all the the long term reliance on echnological adb=vance has been shown to provide in the post war years.

 

It is important to understand how the 20 years or so following WWII has shaped modern society. The whole world wanted change, Technology from the war effort needed an outlet. Fertilizer was 'discovered' from petrochemicals, which tethered to the wartime self sufficiency ethos allowed this new technology to bloom, alondside the mass introduction of the tractor, in the form of the little grey fergie, and the fordson, which before the war were seen as evil and unnecessary. There was a mass exodus from the countryside and a huge demand for cheap food. The science wasnt there behind it though, and the harm that was doen wasnt realised at the time, until the system was ingrained. The out with old feeling was runnig sterong- technology was seen as the ONLY way. New materials such as prestressed concrete allowed the building of huge (snti)social housing schemes leading to the urban gettos and social deprevaion we see today.

 

As for being owed a job and getting off you arse to make your own way, then that is a very commendable idea, if rather utopian and misguided. For those of us that live in semi or totally rural areas then that IS a possibility, but put yourself in the shoes of a kid who knows nothing but social depravation and the inside of a tower block inhabited by depressed unemployed ill people (the TRUE end product of capitalim as we no know it). What future is there for him? The state of city eduvation is atrocious, the mentality of the downtrodded advances the depression and all the time they are bombarded with TV terlling them that they have to consume and have the lates Tommy Hilfiger jeans and go on holiday to the Bahamas. This only entrenches their depression and hatred and increases their need to blot out the misery of being at the very bottom of the pile through substance misuse. This is analogous throughout the world on a scale of inner city to inter-country. Whether we apply it to the difference of someone in an inner city estate riddled with crime and heroin to that of a farmer with 6 tractors, or the difference between Bolivia and France, the parallels are there.

 

So back to man or machine.....For years those in the position of 'power' (and i dont mean political, but economic) have needed to sell tgheir product in order to make more money, past the point of any reasonable need or even poast the point of normal desire. Welath has become a god in itself. Instead of paying a wge we get a machine, that way the money stays in our pocket, and let everyone else be damned (Im alright jack- sod the next man). It is what capitalism means. This is enforced further by the likes of Thatcher saying that we should all own our own home and a car. It takes the idea of a society and stands it on its head, turning us all into uncaring, non-community spirited individuals who are slaves to money and the state. It has encouraged the formation of themodern society, which in turn is exeplified by the likes of Road Rage, mas fighting in the streets every staurday night as we all look for one-upmanship. The destruction of the family and community.

 

Macines? An unnecessary evil I think. It is a sorry state that we are in, but one which i fear is so entrenched that there will be no going back.

 

I HAVE to stop writing. sorry .

[tommer9]

This makes very interesting reading....

 

Last Updated: Thursday, 9 March 2006, 10:32 GMT

 

Q&A: Supermarket competition concerns

Tesco shopper

Critics say supermarkets have too much power in the retail world

The Office of Fair Trading has been under increasing pressure to investigate the supermarket sector amid competition concerns in the sector.

 

Despite its ruling late last year that there was "insufficient evidence" to prompt such an inquiry, the OFT was forced to reconsider its position after the matter was referred to the Competition Appeals Tribunal.

 

The tribunal quashed its ruling and ordered the OFT to reach a new decision as soon as possible.

 

The OFT weighed up a number of questions before it decided to refer the matter to the Competition Commission.

 

Why are supermarkets causing concern?

 

Significant worries have been raised about the relentless rise of supermarkets and their hold over consumers and suppliers alike.

 

According to market research group TNS Worldpanel, the UK's big four - Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury's and Morrisons - now hold almost three-quarters (74.4%) of the grocery market.

 

Tesco, the UK's number one supermarket has the biggest share and now takes £1 of every £8 spent by consumers in the UK.

 

When you consider that UK retail sales totalled £246bn in 2004 - more than the combined economies of Switzerland and Ireland - that's a significant amount.

 

According to the All Party Parliamentary Small Shops Group, half the UK's 278,630 shops are owned and managed by a sole trader.

 

However, these local shops are now losing out to supermarkets, which are moving into the convenience store format.

 

According to the Association of Convenience Stores, in the 12 months to June last year, 2,000 independent convenience stores closed down as supermarkets moved in.

 

What areas did the OFT examine?

 

The OFT looked at two main issues - competition worries surrounding the local convenience stores market and whether supermarkets are abusing their relationships with suppliers.

 

Last year, the OFT ruled that the grocery market was not restrictive, prompting widespread derision from local shops and action groups.

 

The OFT also ruled that there was no need to reform the way the supermarkets deal with suppliers, despite claims that the "big four" had engaged in "bullying tactics".

 

However, in its latest statement, the OFT now says there is "some evidence to suggest that the big supermarkets' buyer power has increased".

 

Why are people worried about the convenience stores sector?

 

Local, or corner, shops are becoming a huge growth area for supermarkets.

 

As the big four - Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury and Morrison's - face greater planning restrictions, one of the key ways they can expand their business is by targeting the convenience store format.

 

Tesco petrol forecourt

Tesco plans to change many petrol stations to its Express format

 

Such a tactic also allows the supermarkets to target "cash-rich, time poor" consumers who can pick up a few groceries on the way home.

 

However, the strategy has drawn fire from MPs and small shops groups.

 

The recent all-party report by MPs warned that the invasion of supermarkets into the convenience store sector could destroy the local community.

 

Friends of the Earth and the Women's Institute also highlighted social and economic concerns raised by the increasing dominance of supermarkets.

 

The Association of Convenience Stores warned that predatory or below-cost pricing by supermarkets was driving small shops out of business, as they were unable to compete with their bigger rivals.

 

It also argued that the OFT's decision to divide the retail market into "convenience" and "one-stop" categories had allowed supermarkets to expand into the convenience store sector unhindered.

 

Consumers have voiced concern about having less choice on the High Street, and in-store, as consolidation and expansion in the market continues.

 

Why the beef over supermarket suppliers?

 

Campaign groups like Breaking the Armlock Alliance are up in arms over the OFT's original ruling that supermarkets are sticking to the Supermarkets' Code of Practice and treating suppliers fairly.

 

They allege that suppliers have been too scared to complain of any code breaches, for fear of losing key contracts.

 

Critics want an independent watchdog to oversee complaints made in confidence.

 

Under the current system, complaints from suppliers have to go through retailers.

 

The National Farmers Union (NFU) also wants the OFT to acknowledge that there is a problem, saying "many farmers live in fear of losing contracts if they speak out - they're not the greatest deals but they are all they've got".

 

Suppliers and campaigners want clear, transparent information on buying prices.

 

Other groups complain that the code also fails to protect workers overseas and ensure they get a fair, living wage.

 

What do the supermarkets say to all this criticism?

 

Supermarkets have long argued they are simply giving UK consumers what they want and treat suppliers fairly.

 

Tesco has denied that smaller shops are at risk, arguing that consumers use both supermarkets and corner shops at different times.

 

The British Retail Consortium (BRC), which represents supermarkets, says consumers are the best regulator of the sector.

 

It argues that supermarkets have grown as they have met the changing demand of shoppers, and in turn, competition has benefited consumers by offering lower prices, greater choice and high quality produce.

 

Have any big names raised concerns about supermarkets?

 

Any criticism mainly seems to come down to gripes about market leader Tesco, which currently has a 30.2% share of the market - way ahead of Asda (16.6%) and Sainsbury (16.2%).

 

Asda shopper

Even Asda is feeling the squeeze from Tesco

But rivals have spoken out about its expansion, as the group plans a rapid rollout of its Express format stores across the country.

 

Asda's owner Wal-Mart has called on the government to investigate Tesco's continuing domination, because it was so difficult for rivals to try to catch up.

 

Remarkably, smaller rival Waitrose - owned by department store John Lewis - has also added its voice to concerns about declining competition in the convenience store sector.

 

While insisting it was not anti-Tesco, the retailer recently revealed it had been prevented from opening stores in many towns as it had been outbid by Tesco.

 

Local authorities fail to consider competition, service and social issues, instead concentrating purely on who pays the highest price, Waitrose added.

 

How long before an inquiry goes ahead?

 

Now that the OFT has decided to refer the supermarket sector to competition watchdogs, a four-week open consultation will take place, ending on 6 April.

 

It will then make a final decision on the matter next month.

 

If it does decide to go ahead with a full investigation, the process could take months and cost big-name supermarkets millions of pounds.