Opinions wanted please - Where are all the arborists?

[Dan Maynard]

It depends also what you mean by get started, CS100, small trailer, pickup, harness, topper, hedge trimmer and off you go. Not as efficient for larger jobs but plenty you can get on with and earn some money, upgrade gear as you go.

 

 

[Pete Mctree]

Not just money - you need a modicum of talent and a boat load of guts and determination

[josharb87]

37 minutes ago, treevolution said:

£20000 will just about get you a euro 6 tipper. 

Plus chipper, saws, climbing and rig kit etc. 

Insurance. 

Chainsaw tickets 

Rent somewhere to keep the gear. 

 

I'm not saying you couldn't start with £20000 but even that is a lot of money to find. 

 

Unfortunately this is not a cheap industry to start up in. 

 

for the sake of arguing, you only need enough for the down payment, finance the rest, even kit, iirc honeys started doing finance years back 

or take a business plan to the bank

[Mr. Squirrel]

In response to the original post.
It sounds to me like your struggling to meet demand for staff at, I imagine, predominantly large companies. Probably because they pay crap and offer little in the way of employment benefits and professional development beyond a utilities course or some rubbish.
How many companies offer the likes of private health cover and robust sick leave? Because that clearly matters in an inherently dangerous job, but it’s not something I’ve heard of.  
 

It mentioned the ‘perceived’ benefits of self employment, presumably such as better money, more flexibility, more control over your working life… those are actual benefits. Yes you’ll lose out on the minimum pension contributions, but you’ll probably gain a better quality of life. 
 

My overall impression was 1) employers offer little incentive to employees, or we wouldn’t see the theme repeating itself. And 2) that the real issue touched on was being a recruiter in an industry with an above average proportion of weird tree people who don’t want to be recruited. 
 

I’ve never been a full time employee, I did 10 years of freelancing and then started taking on my own work. I worked for some good people but wouldn’t have wanted to go on the books for any of them. 

[Sviatoslav Tulin]

18 hours ago, KateH said:

Hi Arbtalk friends,

Some of you were kind enough to help with research for the article we wrote for the spring edition of the Arb Assocaiation magazine, for which many thanks 😊

If you haven't read it yet here it is: 

Arboricultural Association - Where are all the arborists?

TREES.ORG.UK

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<div class= row green346bg-20 p-2 > <div class= col-sm-12 col-md-8 col-md-offset-2 > <p class= text-center lead ><em>The Association is acutely aware of the succession crisis in our...

We're now collecting feedback. Lots of arborists have commented on different social media platforms and over the next couple of days we're collating these views. If any of you have anything to add here we'll make sure it's included in our feedback to the Arb Association. We want to get that off to them by Friday 31st March.

We know that we only see one side of the industry and are keen to make sure that the discussions we are part of are as rounded as possible so please don't hold back. Thanks in advance, Kate & Beccy

 

 

I’m actually sitting in the very bottom, and I m fed very well,as any parasite will do ✌🏿

[KateH]

12 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

In response to the original post.
It sounds to me like your struggling to meet demand for staff at, I imagine, predominantly large companies. Probably because they pay crap and offer little in the way of employment benefits and professional development beyond a utilities course or some rubbish.
How many companies offer the likes of private health cover and robust sick leave? Because that clearly matters in an inherently dangerous job, but it’s not something I’ve heard of.  
 

It mentioned the ‘perceived’ benefits of self employment, presumably such as better money, more flexibility, more control over your working life… those are actual benefits. Yes you’ll lose out on the minimum pension contributions, but you’ll probably gain a better quality of life. 
 

My overall impression was 1) employers offer little incentive to employees, or we wouldn’t see the theme repeating itself. And 2) that the real issue touched on was being a recruiter in an industry with an above average proportion of weird tree people who don’t want to be recruited. 
 

I’ve never been a full time employee, I did 10 years of freelancing and then started taking on my own work. I worked for some good people but wouldn’t have wanted to go on the books for any of them. 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by KateH

[Sviatoslav Tulin]

There is a big anticompanies movement in the world, so I wish all of them to FF and governments as well,this is main reason why there is so big shortage of manual workers, for example I better become a criminal or sign contract with WAGNER  ,than work for any f… company. Bottom feeding is my choose hehe

[KateH]

44 minutes ago, KateH said:

Thank you for taking the time to comment @Mr. Squirrel, you raise some good points. It is definitely not easy being a recruiter in this industry, that is partly the reason for the article. We wouldn't have written it if nobody used us because the self-employed market was sufficient to service the tree work requirements of the UK. We'd be out of business and there would be no succession issue because freelance/self-employed arboriculture would be a career of choice for many people. 

Taking your points in turn:

We employ into a few large companies, some small to medium sized businesses and payroll, and sometimes find permanent roles, in local authorities. If 'crap' pay is offered the role is usually not filled and we always advise employers seeking staff to go as high as they can to get the best candidates. We do our very best to push for good remuneration and are trying to be a voice for better pay in the industry.

The benefits of many roles we offer are actually good, you just have to swap those for the flexibility of being self-employed. For some the knowledge that there will be a paycheck at the end of the month is worth the lack of freedom to choose what work they do. Robust heath cover and sick leave are usually part of permanent contracts and in LA work the benefits of a less profit driven working environment can be attractive to many (not to mention the enhanced holidays and pension scheme). It’s horses for courses.

We understand and respect that some people prefer to be self-employed, but that isn't necessarily easy and employers across the industry don't just want self-employed workers. 

There are a couple of issues which you haven't mentioned which others have and we think merit discussion.

1)      The lack of regulation in the industry means that those without qualifications and tree knowledge can undercut those who have the knowledge and skills to do the job well and safely. We know that some argue that regulation would only benefit the big companies, but is this right?

2)      The lack of understanding the public has for the role of people who work on and in trees further fuels the issue of a decent wage and they often don’t want to pay for the job to be done well, safely and by qualified technicians. Can this perception be changed?

We are raising these discussions because we want to support the industry in trying to solve the issues we see. We work with arborists from grounds ops to climbers, surveyors and consultants and it feels as though there is a dwindling workforce (compared to what is necessary to look after the tree stock of the UK).

We are just trying to do what we can to help and appreciate all feedback and comments.

Thanks for yours, 😊 Kate & Beccy

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by KateH

[Mick Dempsey]

To address your points at the end of the post.

1: The word ‘undercut’ is perjorative, substitute that for ‘offer better value’ or even ‘cheaper’ and you change everything. For a removal for example you can either do it or you can’t, if the tree has gone and the house is still there, mission accomplished.

FB tree guy sites are replete with threads and posts with guys whining about how they’re so great and customers don’t appreciate their skill and how they’re losing work because another outfit (always hacks and cowboys) are taking their work and ruining the industry etc.

Well boo hoo, tough titty, maybe look in the mirror for why you’re losing work.

 

2: There’s no lack of understanding from the public about what tree guys do, anymore than there’s a lack of understanding from the public about Electricians, Binmen or satellite engineers, ie. they don’t care, just do your job, put the bill in and go home.

If you want more money, do it twice as quick and do double the work.

 

3: More jobs than people in every sector from what I read, so lower paid work is the first to suffer as people move up the chain to jobs they wouldn’t get in normal economic circumstances.

 

As for regulation, it’ll never happen. Not unless they want to start marching into gypsy camps with their clipboards and forms, anyone think that’s going to happen?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Mick Dempsey

[Mr. Squirrel]

3 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

To address your points at the end of the post.

1: The word ‘undercut’ is perjorative, substitute that for ‘offer better value’ or even ‘cheaper’ and you change everything. For a removal for example you can either do it or you can’t, if the tree has gone and the house is still there, mission accomplished.

FB tree guy sites are replete with threads and posts with guys whining about how they’re so great and customers don’t appreciate their skill and how they’re losing work because another outfit (always hacks and cowboys) are taking their work and ruining the industry etc.

Well boo hoo, tough titty, maybe look in the mirror for why you’re losing work.

 

2: There’s no lack of understanding from the public about what tree guys do, anymore than there’s a lack of understanding from the public about Electricians, Binmen or satellite engineers, ie. they don’t care, just do your job, put the bill in and go home.

If you want more money, do it twice as quick and do double the work.

 

3: More jobs than people in every sector from what I read, so lower paid work is the first to suffer as people move up the chain to jobs they wouldn’t get in normal economic circumstances.

 

As for regulation, it’ll never happen. Not unless they want to start marching into gypsy camps with their clipboards and forms, anyone think that’s going to happen?

 

 

1: I totally agree with regards to tree removal to an extent. You could pay the flashest outfit going to come in and helicopter trees out, or pay the bloke at the end of the road to hack it to bits off his ladder with a bow saw. If the end result is the tree is no longer there, then option one has just costed you £10k extra for no reason. I guess the difference is in how these things are undertaken. You can cut a lot of costs in running a business by not having insurance, carrying on using those 10 year old slings, never lolering kit, running crap old saws etc etc. Is that better value? Maybe, but when that rotten old sling breaks, a lump of wood smashes through a conservatory and the contractors best response is 'sorry' maybe not. The 'end result' argument goes out the window when you're thinking about pruning too.

 

2: There's potentially no lack of understanding in what a number of tree guys do, because they probably don't understand either. I'm not branding everyone but me as incompetent, there are a lot of knowledgable and skilled people out there. But there's also an awful lot of hacks who just don't care... Heck I have to drive past some of the worst pruning I've ever seen on a mature beech almost daily. you'll know as well as anyone Mick that good arboriculture is rarely black and white and doing a professional job often requires a bit of informing. Trees have too much value to just keep your head down and do exactly what the client wants all the time.

 

Really don't think that gypsy camps would be the issue in industry regulation. They're a convenient scapegoat but I think your average small company would be just as difficult to get further compliancy from, if not more so as it's relatively easy to look pretty professional. I'd be all in favour of greater regulation if implemented in the correct manner. Making the chainsaw in a tree ticket more robust for instance, and making rigging a mandatory part of that would be beneficial in my mind. Who can honestly operate without doing any rigging? So what's the point of the stand alone ticket? 

 

Honestly I think the industry has been a bit saturated for a while. Rates in the UK have pretty much stagnated for years and are way below those in many EU countries. Perhaps a skill shortage would help push wages up a bit?