Problems and issues this industry faces and how to deal with them.

[Retired Climber]

1 minute ago, Mick Dempsey said:

If my aunt had bollocks she’d be my uncle.

 

Look we’re going round in circles, I’ll leave it for a bit

 

 

We aren't going round in circles; I actually thought we were getting somewhere. 

Anyway, yep, good plan. Let's pick it up again another day then.

Enjoy the footy. 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

38 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

Whilst I agree with you from a micro-economics viewpoint, and agree that the approach will work for invividuals and their businesses, to fix an industry we surely need to concentrate on the macro environment. 

Whether we like it or not, prices are limited by the market's avoidance of cognitive dissonance; they simply can't bring themselves to pay above a certain level for someone doing a working class job. 

I agree to a point with some of that.

 

I only operate in the 'micro' environment in which I exist.  I have no interest in any other operating scale model - perhaps I could / should, but I don't.  That's it.

 

Of course there are macro influences at the micro level - we all know the housing market is turbo charged, that white collar lard asses are abandoning heavily populated metropolitan areas post covid, selling real estate that still has inflated value and infesting (that's not a typo for 'investing', I did mean infesting) the rural areas where their buck goes a lot further and they have probably trousered around 500k in free capital from relocation / downsizing to a work-from-home or hybrid work profile.  That extra money is literally sloshing around the micro local economies with most (if not all trades) hoovering up vast swathes of new money.   Of course it is a time limited opportunity but its not as if work was slow before - its just manic now and that is leaving some people with extended lead times to complete or finding the extra cash to bump themselves up the priority listing.  People are so impatient which kind of annoys me in the arb world since 'problems' rarely happen overnight and are more likely a consequence of sustained neglect - the blow-ins buck that trend but that's a whole other topic.

 

The reason I don't care about the problems of the bigger players is because they chose that life and business model.  Climbers and groundies get shite wages in big companies because, out of the finite amount of money available on any job, the big boys have to pay for fat bastard business consultants, office staff, company cars, directors share bonuses and all the other bollox that takes a bite out of the climbers cake.

 

In my world, the customer gets the CEO, the H&S expert, the sales rep, the QA guy, the office bitch and the tea boy all in one package, on site at every job and available on the phone at any time if the customer falls into category 1 or 2 of my previous post.

 

I guess I have a fundamental difficulty with your final point about working class.

 

What is working class?  Whilst I am probably at my happiest when feeding the chipper (whilst maintaining a comprehensive overview of the entire job site)  there is no doubt that is a manual / unskilled task.  Does that make me working class?  I fail to meet the criteria on just about every other recognised measure although I do have rough skin on hands? 😩

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[Retired Climber]

16 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

I agree to a point with some of that.

 

I only operate in the 'micro' environment in which I exist.  I have no interest in any other operating scale model - perhaps I could / should, but I don't.  That's it.

 

Of course there are macro influences at the micro level - we all know the housing market is turbo charged, that white collar lard asses are abandoning heavily populated metropolitan areas post covid, selling real estate that still has inflated value and infesting (that's not a typo for 'investing', I did mean infesting) the rural areas where their buck goes a lot further and they have probably trousered around 500k in free capital from relocation / downsizing to a work-from-home or hybrid work profile.  That extra money is literally sloshing around the micro local economies with most (if not all trades) hoovering up vast swathes of new money.   Of course it is a time limited opportunity but its not as if work was slow before - its just manic now and that is leaving some people with extended lead times to complete or finding the extra cash to bump themselves up the priority listing.  People are so impatient which kind of annoys me in the arb world since 'problems' rarely happen overnight and are more likely a consequence of sustained neglect - the blow-ins buck that trend but that's a whole other topic.

 

The reason I don't care about the problems of the bigger players is because they chose that life and business model.  Climbers and groundies get shite wages in big companies because, out of the finite amount of money available on any job, the big boys have to pay for fat bastard business consultants, office staff, company cars, directors share bonuses and all the other bollox that takes a bite out of the climbers cake.

 

In my world, the customer gets the CEO, the H&S expert, the sales rep, the QA guy, the office bitch and the tea boy all in one package, on site at every job and available on the phone at any time if the customer falls into category 1 or 2 of my previous post.

 

I guess I have a fundamental difficulty with your final point about working class.

 

What is working class?  Whilst I am probably at my happiest when feeding the chipper (whilst maintaining a comprehensive overview of the entire job site)  there is no doubt that is a manual / unskilled task.  Does that make me working class?  I fail to meet the criteria on just about every other recognised measure although I do have rough skin on hands? 😩

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking more macro than micro as the whole point in the thread is about problems that exist in an entire industry. To understand the micro, we need to understand the macro and the broader economic principles (yes, I know you already know that). 

 

Apologies about the working class comment, it was a bit of a hat tip to comments on another thread. I personally think the whole idea of class is very outdated, and completely agree that most of us now operate outside of the class norms, into which were were born / pigeonholed / wrestled into. 

 

One of your sentences summed up my position on this nicely. The climbers get crappy pay as the amount of money available is finite. The level at which it reaches its peak is due to the points I made to Mick in a few posts on this thread. 

[Retired Climber]

2 hours ago, Mike Hill said:

The real problem is that most UK tree work is pretty easy and is not very kit intensive. Therefore alot of people can enter the indusry as sole traders who eat the icing off the cake.

That is an excellent point, and one I'd not really considered. Maybe our 'macro' economic principles aren't macro enough. I've been thinking about issues in the UK in isolation, but comparison to other countries is something of a revelation. 

[eggsarascal]

4 hours ago, dumper said:

Not agency just company doing books swap payment between different companies so as not to work for same company through out year

Is this what's known as umbrella payment?

 

I've heard Lads talking about being paid this way but know nothing of it.

[Excels1or]

I think pricing within the industry needs to be addressed. An age old problem, discussed ad nauseam. Rather than a Arb Ass, perhaps we need a union.....there, I said it.

[devon TWiG]

Although there are issues some may see as problems ....the Industry is very robust at the moment I think , plenty of work , never known so many companies etc , sadly much of that due to ADB , which will greatly reduce in the near / middle future , we have never had better gear and techniques for doing the job , the Industry is pretty competitive , with most contractors trying too be as efficient and hard working as is reasonably practical , the main issue I believe is for future planning ,, what will it be like in a few years time as I doubt anyone thought a few years ago that we would be in the position we are now !!!    Also for many the issue of a Yard /Base to operate from which is available , secure and affordable is a big issue ....There does seem to be a pretty high staff turnover and it takes time and money to replace good people , do some employers just expect too much from their staff ?   some I know start early and work  very hard until job is done, or squeezing in a second job  even if it means working late to ensure that they are the most competitive , although this may be good from the  business owners  point of view I often hear staff ...and especially subbies ... moan that it is "unreasonable "  ...

[paddyvero]

Good topic. 

Is it the education, or lack of that is the problem? 

I admit I dont know how the system works in the UK anymore, but I cant imagine its any better than it was when I was learning. 

Is it the lack of a good accreditation system? 

Is it that it is just too easy to get 'trained', set up as a sole trader and generally make a hash of things? 

 

We certainly have some of these issues here on the west coast of  Canada. The education is almost none existant and frankly pretty crap, but they are trying. No legitimate accreditation system. Not even basic competency requirements. However, I would say it is harder to set up on your own, and from my experience customers want a profesional experience, so that weeds out some of the competition.

 

But also, do the general population really care about trees? Seems to me lots care more about their lawn.

Edited August 21, 2022 by paddyvero
Typo

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, Excels1or said:

I think pricing within the industry needs to be addressed. An age old problem, discussed ad nauseam. Rather than a Arb Ass, perhaps we need a union.....there, I said it.

I’ve often wondered about that. 
 

Whether the federation of small business is worthwhile. They pissed me off a good while back and never really recovered lost ground (🧐thinks - AA)

 

I can (kind of) see the worth of FSB lobbying government but trouble with a union would be , unless everyone joined it’d be pointless! 

[eggsarascal]

1 minute ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

I’ve often wondered about that. 
 

Whether the federation of small business is worthwhile. They pissed me off a good while back and never really recovered lost ground (🧐thinks - AA)

 

I can (kind of) see the worth of FSB lobbying government but trouble with a union would be , unless everyone joined it’d be pointless! 

My gast is flabberd, well almost.