Russia Invades ukraine

[GarethM]

4 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Brokering a peace is one thing, but total capitulation is another. The US is not asking Russia to make a single concession, other than "give up your aim of taking all of Ukraine".

 

If Ukraine were to agree, and Trump got his 'peace' through, Russia would be rolling through a neutered and defenseless Ukraine within 12-36 months, to finish the job. 

Well suggest an alternative, don't you dare just trott out the Russians give back everything and go home rubbish!.

 

It's a negotiation, give and take are required.

[Big J]

9 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Well suggest an alternative, don't you dare just trott out the Russians give back everything and go home rubbish!.

 

It's a negotiation, give and take are required.

 

Why exactly is that so wrong? Why is it unreasonable for Ukraine to insist that it's neighbour respects it's internationally recognised borders? Russia is unquestionably the aggressor.

 

But, in the spirit of trying to end the war, I would suggest to Ukraine that it gives up Luhansk, Donbas and Crimea in exchange for the return of all other occupied land, EU and Nato membership and a permanent demilitarised zone, manned with international peacekeepers. 

Putin has his exit ramp, insofar as he can say that he secured those lands for Russia, and Ukraine recovers some of it's sovereign territory and has future security assurances. Though given how the Budapest memorandum wasn't honoured, how much that is worth is debatable. 

 

Either way, a lasting peace isn't going to be acheived by simply giving Russia everything it demands. That would only embolden them to repeat the actions in the future.

 

 

[GarethM]

4 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Why exactly is that so wrong? Why is it unreasonable for Ukraine to insist that it's neighbour respects it's internationally recognised borders? Russia is unquestionably the aggressor.

 

But, in the spirit of trying to end the war, I would suggest to Ukraine that it gives up Luhansk, Donbas and Crimea in exchange for the return of all other occupied land, EU and Nato membership and a permanent demilitarised zone, manned with international peacekeepers. 

Putin has his exit ramp, insofar as he can say that he secured those lands for Russia, and Ukraine recovers some of it's sovereign territory and has future security assurances. Though given how the Budapest memorandum wasn't honoured, how much that is worth is debatable. 

 

Either way, a lasting peace isn't going to be achieved by simply giving Russia everything it demands. That would only embolden them to repeat the actions in the future.

And how many times have I suggested using the river and the above and then I get moans of he should give it all back blah blah going around in circles.

 

Then calling out the Donald, well in what a month he's gone from zero happening to something instead of Joe sleeping.

 

All whilst Ursula and the rest dither and go to expensive lunches and cry when they're told to step up and do something on their own doorstep.

[Steven P]

I suspect that Bidens negotiation tactics wasn't rolling over to every Russian demand though, perhaps looking at international treaties and agreements, trying to go with the rule of established law, rather than "That boy is bigger, lets give him all the toys". Perhaps Biden had an awareness of history (and like Trump, when I say Biden I am mostly meaning his advisors), appeasing the aggressor has been shown so so well to bring a lasting peace hasn't it.

[GarethM]

1 minute ago, Steven P said:

I suspect that Bidens negotiation tactics wasn't rolling over to every Russian demand though, perhaps looking at international treaties and agreements, trying to go with the rule of established law, rather than "That boy is bigger, lets give him all the toys". Perhaps Biden had an awareness of history (and like Trump, when I say Biden I am mostly meaning his advisors), appeasing the aggressor has been shown so so well to bring a lasting peace hasn't it.

That's not a delusional rabbit hole you want to start digging, Biden thinks he's bloody Irish and has spent his career filibustering.

[Johnsond]

13 minutes ago, Steven P said:

I suspect that Bidens negotiation tactics wasn't rolling over to every Russian demand though, perhaps looking at international treaties and agreements, trying to go with the rule of established law, rather than "That boy is bigger, lets give him all the toys". Perhaps Biden had an awareness of history (and like Trump, when I say Biden I am mostly meaning his advisors), appeasing the aggressor has been shown so so well to bring a lasting peace hasn't it.

Finland winter war !

[Johnsond]

15 minutes ago, Steven P said:

I suspect that Bidens negotiation tactics wasn't rolling over to every Russian demand though, perhaps looking at international treaties and agreements, trying to go with the rule of established law, rather than "That boy is bigger, lets give him all the toys". Perhaps Biden had an awareness of history (and like Trump, when I say Biden I am mostly meaning his advisors), appeasing the aggressor has been shown so so well to bring a lasting peace hasn't it.

Spend a month in a trench on the front lines and I’d imagine your view on this might change. That’s if your foot could cope. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Johnsond

[Johnsond]

58 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Brokering a peace is one thing, but total capitulation is another. The US is not asking Russia to make a single concession, other than "give up your aim of taking all of Ukraine".

 

If Ukraine were to agree, and Trump got his 'peace' through, Russia would be rolling through a neutered and defenseless Ukraine within 12-36 months, to finish the job. 

 

 

Viable alternatives are??  
You think Putin cares about Russian or Ukrainian casualties?? I’d imagine at some point someone in your family was on the Eastern front J, tactics and ruthless disregard for human life hasn’t changed one bit since then in the Russian mindset. 

[GarethM]

5 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

Viable alternatives are??  
You think Putin cares about Russian or Ukrainian casualties?? I’d imagine at some point someone in your family was on the Eastern front J, tactics and ruthless disregard for human life hasn’t changed one bit since then in the Russian mindset. 

Exactly, when you're in a trench or a foxhole getting shot at, mortars falling all around you.

 

You won't give two f's about the rules of war and the Geneva convention.

 

Even your average school kids played cod and alike to know it's not tea/biscuits and an array of sexy camo outfits.

[Steven P]

48 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Exactly, when you're in a trench or a foxhole getting shot at, mortars falling all around you.

 

On both sides the ones being shot at don't care for the morals. They just wish that they are not being shot at any more, thanks. However they are not the ones who can broker a peace deal - and one that will last. So in todays discussion about who, why and when politics will stop the killing they are an irrelevance really.

 

I think for the US involvement the choice is:

"Roll over and accept the aggressor, his war crimes"

or

"Try to do the right thing"

 

I think we call all see that Trump is firmly in the camp of rolling over, let Putin tickle his tummy and say "what a good boy". I think this is a step change from Biden who was looking at the 2nd option.

 

The rest of the world also appear to be siding on the do the right thing. Apart from Putin, his allies and puppets of course.

 

 

 

EDIT

Not sure if Biden thinking he is Irish, American or even Martian has any bearing on his morals.

Edited 3 hours ago by Steven P