Calling all Camp Gyro users

[Paddy1000111]

None of this fixes the fact that guys who work for bigger companies or keep up to date with the industry code of practice for either themselves or their clients MUST climb with a two rope/two anchor technique. Currently there's no "perfect" solution to harness connections which this thread was created to try and solve. 

 

Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it's not an issue for anyone else who is required to follow the rules. It's like saying poverty doesn't exist because you have a fat bank account. It doesn't help anyone who's actually broke. 

[Tommy_B]

49 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

 

But I will use "Two anchor" from now on so you don't get upset. I would suggest consulting any large tree company that's now requiring full 2 rope (anchor) compliance or the fact that you will fail any NPTC course involving climbing if you are on one rope at ANY point including changing anchors. 

 

From the arboriculture industry code of practice:

 the operator should be connected to a backup that provides a fail-to-safe in the event of failure of the primary system, during ascent, moving around the tree and descent: 1. any system employed to act as a backup must: i. limit the distance and consequences of a fall if the primary system, including main line, components or anchor, were to fail; ii. use an anchor which is independent of the primary system anchor or, if there is not one that is suitable, be installed over a shared anchor. 2. the backup may only be omitted in cases where it is not practical to maintain it for specific, short-duration tasks. In such circumstances, all measures must be taken to ensure that the primary system anchor point and the personal fall protection system cannot fail.

 

I'm not saying that the law requires you to use two ropes all the time and there's no excuse. I am saying that if you're climbing a tree, according to hse and the AA you should be using two rope techniques unless you are carrying out a specific task where it's not safe like some sort of dangerous cut and then it is only applicable for that one specific task not your entire climb

 

That ruling doesn't say "You can climb single rope as long as you say that 2 rope isn't practical" 

But you won't though, You've just contradicted yourself. If it's on the risk assessment and the preclimb verbal assessment and you're able to explain using a single rope and lanyard set up on an assessment, you wouldn't fail an assessment. 

 

[AHPP]

The thing with Paddy’s and Khriss’s approach is that they learned it from industries where costs and risks can always be given to someone else, eventually the consumer and taxpayer. Their industries are convolutedly regulated enough that they don’t need to concern themselves with sanity, compromise etc when instead they can enthusiastically overreact to some new guidance or regulation and create prima facie profitable work filling in forms, training people etc. The building industry is diabolical for it, slavishly following the minutest new diktat or, better yet, exceeding the requirement rather than merely meeting it. This has created the compliance arms race that means only the most boring cvnts get big contracts because only they can be arsed with the paperwork. It of course then becomes in their interest to tell everybody else that only they’re doing it right.

Stark contrast with the (altogether more wholesome) world where red blooded men of industry put their wit and capital into competition with that of other men and that’s that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paddy1000111]

9 minutes ago, Tommy_B said:

But you won't though, You've just contradicted yourself. If it's on the risk assessment and the preclimb verbal assessment and you're able to explain using a single rope and lanyard set up on an assessment, you wouldn't fail an assessment. 

 

That's not what I was told by an instructor and the assessor but there we go. There's absolutely no reason why you can't ascend, move around and descend with 2 anchors. Rigging and making certain cuts I agree can't always be done with 2 anchors but that is allowed for. Either way, if you pull up to a tree on an assessment, be it spiking up a pole or climbing a tree for a course you will fail if you have one anchor and no backup unless you have a special reason when up the tree although as far as I am aware there isn't one for NPTC assessments. You will also, by current standards fail a cs38 if you disconnect to one anchor at any point. 

 

At the end of the day this thread has gone way off topic. The industry is meant to be using 2 anchor points, like it or not as we are meant to be working to HSE standards. If you do it or not is up to you, I really couldn't care less. Some are forced to use it because of company policies. The only point in this thread was to get feedback from people using two rope or the gyro and find out what they would want in a product but it's as usual become a grudge match for who knows more. Neither you nor I make the decisions for climbers in utilities, rail, highways or bigger domestic companies so arguing about weather or not you're required to use it makes no difference at all. 

 

Just accept the fact that some of us HAVE to use it, and this thread was an opportunity to make life easier and get product feedback. It was never intended in the titles or original posts to be a "If you're not climbing two rope you are useless at your job"  If you have no constructive comments about the gyro or what you would want in harness connection then there's no point in being here?

 

 

[jfc]

Paddy please stop acting like an expert when you are anything but, sorry for being so blunt but really....

[Paddy1000111]

Just now, jfc said:

Paddy please stop acting like an expert when you are anything but, sorry for being so blunt but really....

Then please do prove me wrong. 

 

Anyway... Going back to harness connections. Anyone got anything constructive? 

[Tommy_B]

1 minute ago, Paddy1000111 said:

That's not what I was told by an instructor and the assessor but there we go. There's absolutely no reason why you can't ascend, move around and descend with 2 anchors. Rigging and making certain cuts I agree can't always be done with 2 anchors but that is allowed for. Either way, if you pull up to a tree on an assessment, be it spiking up a pole or climbing a tree for a course you will fail if you have one anchor and no backup unless you have a special reason when up the tree although as far as I am aware there isn't one for NPTC assessments. You will also, by current standards fail a cs38 if you disconnect to one anchor at any point. 

 

At the end of the day this thread has gone way off topic. The industry is meant to be using 2 anchor points, like it or not as we are meant to be working to HSE standards. If you do it or not is up to you, I really couldn't care less. Some are forced to use it because of company policies. The only point in this thread was to get feedback from people using two rope or the gyro and find out what they would want in a product but it's as usual become a grudge match for who knows more. Neither you nor I make the decisions for climbers in utilities, rail, highways or bigger domestic companies so arguing about weather or not you're required to use it makes no difference at all. 

 

Just accept the fact that some of us HAVE to use it, and this thread was an opportunity to make life easier and get product feedback. It was never intended in the titles or original posts to be a "If you're not climbing two rope you are useless at your job"  If you have no constructive comments about the gyro or what you would want in harness connection then there's no point in being here?

 

 

I personally don't know if I agree with the way a lot of forums seem to be heading, that Facebook rules apply and whoever shouts the loudest wins. This is a place where (hopefully) the more serious and realistic operators can talk to each other without the gimps from Facebook chiming in and trying to race to the lowest standard.

With that in mind, I'm going to put my view points on this forward in a way that I understand it and I'm happy to be proven wrong if there is someone who can prove it. That should be how we are trying to enlighten and share what we've understood right?

 

You have said that "at any point, you disconnect and only have one rope, even on change overs" you will automatically fail any NPTC climbing course?

I've got a good working knowledge of City and Guilds procedures and like to think that I'm fairly coherent, but if I'm reading it correctly, you can operate with one line, but only on the condition that you can prove that it is safer to not have 2 lines. 

[Paddy1000111]

I completely agree with you on the forum front. I just want conversation about topics not a "You know nothing, just shut up" approach. But anyway... 

 

The NPTC guidelines are foggy at the moment with the pretty recent changeover and the training had to rapidly change to meet this new standard. Currently the rules say, as far as I am aware, that during training and the assessment you must be attached to the tree with at least 2 anchors at all times. That can be whatever you want, 2 ropes, 1 rope 1 strop but 1 rope MUST reach the ground at any time. For spiking up poles it's the same, 2 anchors at all times including one rope that must reach the ground so you are expected to climb with one lanyard (say a steel flipline) around the tree and crossed over on the front or it doesn't count as an anchor and then one end of a climbing rope in choker around the tree with a prussik or other attachment method to your harness so you drag the rope up with you. From my last assessment which was late last year although I have cs40 soon so I can review it again, there's currently no allowance in the guidelines for dropping down to one tie in although there are "special circumstances" in the guidelines from hse etc they aren't permitted in an assessment.

 

Going into real life, just to confirm my stand point- HSE requires we climb on two ropes except special circumstances. I don't care what you guys do, but some of us HAVE to use the two rope techniques taught on the NPTC courses as an industry standard.

I only started this thread as a product review/what do people want in a harness connection thing. I never intended on this being a grudge match/who can shout the loudest. I really don't care what peoples opinion is on two rope techniques and I just got a bit frustrated with the "You don't need to use two rope techniques, you can have one anchor at all times, You don't know anything" attitude which I got from somewhere about page 4. It isn't constructive and doesn't prove anything, if people want to climb on one anchor at all times then go for it, it doesn't effect me at all 😂

[skyhuck]

3 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

. All you have said is "I have done this longer than you so I don't follow the law"

No I haven't, that's just more fiction.

[Paddy1000111]

4 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

No I haven't, that's just more fiction.

That wasn't aimed at you, more paraphrasing the people who refuse to accept that 2 anchor is the new standard to which we are meant to work by and the only proof I get is "I've been doing this longer than you, you know nothing". Like I said, I don't care what you do in your own work but don't refuse that the rulings exist or that HSE COULD take you to court for not following them. I'm not saying they are hiding in hedges waiting to catch you out but coming on here saying that two anchors aren't needed at any point if you put it in the RA is a complete waste of mine and everyone elses time. This thread was meant to be a constructive one to get new gear after a similar post about what harness connection for two anchors etc. 

 

We're just going in circles here, I say the law says we're meant to, which it does. Someone tells me that two anchor requirements don't exist which is contrary to HSE, AA guidance, NPTC assessments and the current mess that is climbing for a large company then someone says about how many years they've been doing the job. 

 

Let's just give it a rest and say we don't agree on 2 anchor and get back to harness attachments which was the whole reason this thread was created...