Maybe the UK should plant more....

[Stere]

I seen some managment with broadleaf some kind contionous cover selective fell scheme where many tubed   replanted trees in clearings mostly died as too shaded (planted species lacked enough shade tolerance) and the self seeders did better than tubed trees, also  the planted trees had too compete with the felled sycamore that coppiced think its hard to get right? Also the oaks get mildew now....

 

Maybe thet had the right idea back in medieval times for broadleaf when they  just coppiced the lot in coupes but left few standard trees instead of selective fell for  mixed broadleaf woodland...

[Squaredy]

As has been said this is a very interesting debate.  I would love some of the guys at Forestry Commission to give a view or two, but I suspect that Big J's final Euc crop will have matured and been harvested before they complete the red tape to allow them to express an opinion.

 

Maybe some of the private forestry firms might like to comment.  I know lots of small estates where native hardwoods are seen as a very valuable crop, but is this because they have been in continuous management for centuries?  Of course one major advantage these estates have is that the land is usually inherited, so in effect it is a free resource for them to utilise.

 

Anyone can see that growing Oak (or even Cherry or Sycamore or others) for a financial return in the UK is a challenge.  But is it really as bleak as BigJ says?

[Big J]

21 minutes ago, Squaredy said:

Anyone can see that growing Oak (or even Cherry or Sycamore or others) for a financial return in the UK is a challenge.  But is it really as bleak as BigJ says?

 

I think it is, yes. 

 

I see countless stands of trees through work. Mostly younger stands these days too. Of everything that I have seen in the last year or two, I can think of only one young broadleaf stand that is anywhere near decent. It's part of a much larger sitka plantation (about 47 hectares all in) and the native broadleaves have been planted on the steeper, wetter ground and the alder and cherry has done really quite well. I haven't looked at it in great detail, as I was there to tender on the spruce, but it's fine. The only other hardwood plantations that have had decent growth/form have been those with ash and the ash has died/is dying. 

 

The rest of the broadleaf plantations have been awful. I'm talking dozens of woodlands, hundreds of acres of stunted, squirrel ravaged bonsais.

 

The difference is that when these older stands (that's we're presently harvesting for hardwood) were established, the grey squirrels weren't an issue. So they were able to establish. 

 

Until grey squirrels are irradicated, I can never counternance planting native broadleaves as a crop tree. It's either pointless, or extremely hard work.

[AHPP]

 
Very interesting points, and I'm entirely in favour of continuous cover, if it's possible. I do do clearfells, but I don't like them. The issue is that the management regime of a woodland needs to be focused on CCF from the outset. You can't decide halfway through a cycle to then switch to CCF and expect it to stay standing.
 
Fundamentally, trees grow best when in a micro-climate, sheltered from prevailing weather. CCF allows for new planting/regeneration to get it's best possible start, but at present the entire forestry model in the UK is plant > thin > thin > clearfell. 
 
As regards eucalyptus, CCF is very doable, but you're working on a much shorter timescale. Given that you can take nitens from planting to final crop in 12 years, intervention can be as often as every 2 years. Coup felling blocks and replanting, whilst still taking advantage of the micro climate is the way I'd do it. I can go into more detail....

Please do.

[Mr. Ed]

56 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Very interesting points, and I'm entirely in favour of continuous cover, if it's possible. I do do clearfells, but I don't like them. The issue is that the management regime of a woodland needs to be focused on CCF from the outset. You can't decide halfway through a cycle to then switch to CCF and expect it to stay standing.

 

Fundamentally, trees grow best when in a micro-climate, sheltered from prevailing weather. CCF allows for new planting/regeneration to get it's best possible start, but at present the entire forestry model in the UK is plant > thin > thin > clearfell. 

 

As regards eucalyptus, CCF is very doable, but you're working on a much shorter timescale. Given that you can take nitens from planting to final crop in 12 years, intervention can be as often as every 2 years. Coup felling blocks and replanting, whilst still taking advantage of the micro climate is the way I'd do it. I can go into more detail....

I write from Ireland where there’s another interesting angle to it - the clearfell cycle means that the boffins reckon Irish forestry has contributed to CO2 over the last couple of years. Apparently only some 20% of a Forest’s co2 capture is done by the trees and the rest is in the soil. 

[Paul in the woods]

21 minutes ago, Big J said:

Until grey squirrels are irradicated, I can never counternance planting native broadleaves as a crop tree. It's either pointless, or extremely hard work.

As someone with a few acres of young oaks and a few beech I can second this. Before the canopy closed I selected a few dozen good looking oaks to try and prune the stems up a bit. Sadly most have now been badly damaged by grey squirrels so it will be lucky if much firewood is produced let alone anything more useful.

 

I do control them, more out of principle than any thing more constructive as there's hoards of the critters on neighbouring property waiting to move in.  It's a puzzle why they aren't regarded more like rabbits or rats and legislation put in place to force people to control them. Sadly the opposite seems to be true and most people regard them as cute wildlife that shouldn't be touched.

 

If we are going down the rewilding route, then doesn't that mean leaving mature trees to age, fall naturally and decompose rather than harvest them? And surely for areas to be wild that would mean reduced public access? Most people round here for example seem to regard woodlands as dog toilets and areas to let their hounds chase anything that moves.

[Khriss]

1 hour ago, David Cropper said:

I've actually poked my eyes out at the thought of it. I am using the medium of Braille to respond. 

As you were.  Sick parade 06.30 Hrs And do that top button up !      K

[Big J]

2 minutes ago, Paul in the woods said:

As someone with a few acres of young oaks and a few beech I can second this. Before the canopy closed I selected a few dozen good looking oaks to try and prune the stems up a bit. Sadly most have now been badly damaged by grey squirrels so it will be lucky if much firewood is produced let alone anything more useful.

 

I do control them, more out of principle than any thing more constructive as there's hoards of the critters on neighbouring property waiting to move in.  It's a puzzle why they aren't regarded more like rabbits or rats and legislation put in place to force people to control them. Sadly the opposite seems to be true and most people regard them as cute wildlife that shouldn't be touched.

 

If we are going down the rewilding route, then doesn't that mean leaving mature trees to age, fall naturally and decompose rather than harvest them? And surely for areas to be wild that would mean reduced public access? Most people round here for example seem to regard woodlands as dog toilets and areas to let their hounds chase anything that moves.

 

I'm sorry to hear that your plantation has suffered. Unless a cooperative approach between neighbouring landowners is adopted, any control you do on your land will simply open a vacuum for other squirrels to fill. Chatting to a chap at the National Trust, they are trialing a form of contraception for greys, which if successful, would render them effectively infertile.

 

Best solution is pine martens though. They are extraordinarily effective at reducing grey numbers.

 

I take your point about limiting access for rewilded areas, but I'd counter that yes dogs can be an issue, but with a great deal more open access, rewilded land, the spot pressures that we see now (given that there is almost nowhere to walk freely) would be hugely reduced. 

 

By giving the public the right to access (what would effectively be) common land, we can (with education) get the public to be emotionally invested in their surrounds. I'm not saying this would definitely work, but the idealist in me likes to think so.

 

[Big J]

36 minutes ago, AHPP said:

Please do.

 

Using the example of the eucalyptus plantation I've been mentioning, I'd start strip felling and replanting along the north and east side of the block. The trees are largest here, having been sheltered from the prevailing wind. Conversely, the trees on the western edge are smallest, so these would be the last to be felled. 

 

I'd spread the felling out over 8 years, allowing 2 years between each operation. Tackle the block in four bites, each time replanting immediately. Each time, moving further west and south. The retained trees would afford the newly planted trees substantial shelter, the brash left on the ground would help surpress weeds to an extent, and canopy closure would be achieved in 18 months. The final strip to be felled would be the western edge (which, from my measurements if about 30-35% less productive). The replanted trees on this edge wouldn't have as much shelter from prevailing winds, but it would only represent a quarter of the plantation and would still be no worse than a new planting. They'd still have the brash on the ground. 

 

Then, leave for 5-6 years and repeat. Most of the plantation has decent protection from inclement weather through it's growth cycle and production on this site exceeds 50 cubic metres per hectare per year. So each 1/4 removed would be around 600t, with 2500t being the expectation per 12 years.

 

If you were to completely clearfell, you'd stunt the trees a little in their first couple of years until canopy closure was achieved.

 

More broadly, looking at other species, there are loads of other reasons for CCF, many of which focus on the composition of the soil. Either way, I don't like clearfells and I try to avoid them now.

[Khriss]

35 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

Using the example of the eucalyptus plantation I've been mentioning, I'd start strip felling and replanting along the north and east side of the UK. The trees are largest here, 

Fixed.  K