Now There’s A Suprise...Not

[trigger_andy]

29 minutes ago, Big J said:

From the bit of research I've done, I really like the nordic capitalist model. Supportive of entrepreneurs and business, but very socialist in it's social mindset. The poor aren't really poor and the rich aren't that rich. I was looking at average salaries for lorry drivers in Sweden the other day (out of curiosity) and the average starting wage is £4k a month, rising to double that with 10-15 years experience. They place value on essential services (like transportation of goods) in a way that I don't think we do.

 

Truck Driver Average Salary in Sweden 2020 - The Complete Guide

WWW.SALARYEXPLORER.COM

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Norway at least is very capitalist, but with a good welfare state. The Law of Jente is ever present in Scandinavia.

 

Law of Jante - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

I feel its somewhat of a rule of Envy but it does maintain somewhat of a balance. But to say there is not a disproportionate share of wealth is somewhat naive.  You just have to walk around Stavanger, Bergen or Oslo to see people living like Sardines in Flats almost next to multi Million Pound Water Front Houses. 

 

The Top 10 richest people in Norway are; 

John Fredriksen net worth $100 Billion Dollars.

Olav Thon net worth $6 Billion Dollars

Odd Reitan net worth $5 Billion Dollars

Stein Erik Hagen net worth $4.7 Billion Dollars

Johan H Andresen Jr net worth $3.2 Billion Dollars

Johan Johannson net worth $3.1 Billion Dollars

Andreas Halvorsen net worth $2.8 Billion Dollars

Arne Wilhelmsen net worth $2.4 Billion Dollars

Kjell Inge Rokke net worth $1.8 Billion Dollars

Petter Stordalen net worth $1.5 Billion Dollars.

 

Thats just the top 10! All Billionaires in a country with around population of under 6 Million. Hardly a socialist utopia. I dont think they have a socialist mindset, they just want and pay for a good welfare state. That does not make them Socialist. Wages vary greatly in Norway, I pay almost as much tax in Norway than I would in Scotland, but I get far more back out of the Norwegian System that in reality its far cheaper for me to pay tax in Norway than it is in the UK. 

 

But the small Nordic countries like Norway, Denmark and Sweden who pay if anything slightly more tax than we do in Scotland (Denmark pays more than Norway and Sweden) but have a much better Welfare state do so for a number of reasons, one obviously being the population size, the second is the populations mindset towards healthy eating and exercise. In the Uk, Scotland at least you can lead a Horse to water but clearly we cant make the people drink. 

 

Even the top 10 rich in Sweden is quite staggering;

 

Ingvar Kamprad. $42.5 Billion.

Stefan Persson. $25 Billion.

Birgit Rausing. $13 Billion.

Hans Rausing. $12.8 Billion.

Antonia Johnson. $8.5 Billion.

Melker Schorling. $5.5 Billion.

Jorn Rausing. $5.4 Billion.

Frederik Paulsen. $5.2 Billion.

Fin Rausen. $5.1 Billion

Kirsten Rausing. $5.1 Billion. 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by trigger_andy

[Mike Hill]

Business tax laws in Sweden are alot more favourable for a small business I beleive.

 

In 13 years  of living here full time I know of half a dozen small companies who have moved from Bergen to Sweden.

I can't ever remember meeting a single Swedish business owner here however.

[trigger_andy]

21 minutes ago, Mike Hill said:

Business tax laws in Sweden are alot more favourable for a small business I beleive.

 

In 13 years  of living here full time I know of half a dozen small companies who have moved from Bergen to Sweden.

I can't ever remember meeting a single Swedish business owner here however.

https://www.business-sweden.com/markets/europe/norway/

[tree-fancier123]

9 hours ago, scotspine1 said:

Global de-population programs. Current population forecast based on birthrate patterns for 2100 is 11 billion people - unsustainable - everyone knows this, only a fool would deny it. 

 

Capitalism is destroying the natural world and if we continue at current economic growth globally it will cause civilisational and ecological collapse and with it hardships beyond the imagination. If you think the Covid crisis is bad, wait for the resource wars and mass famines caused by ecological collapse. 

[trigger_andy]

Just now, tree-fancier123 said:

Are you leading by example and showing others that a life can exist outside of capitalism? How do you go about this? An explanation here could help others emulate you. 

 

Or are you telling others to do as you say and not do as you do? 

 

Or perhaps you're running to be an MP where you could make a real difference? Because surely you're not whining and moaning about Capitalism whilst living a Capitalist lifestyle? Surely your not that much of a hypocrite, right? 

[eggsarascal]

13 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

I have to say I’m confused.

 

You got a loan (cheap or otherwise) gave the money to your brother.

 

Now you’re complaining you’ll have to pay the loan back.

 

What am I missing?

No, I took a cheap loan to keep my business running, out of that loan I gave some money to my brother. I'm not complaining.

[tree-fancier123]

12 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Are you leading by example and showing others that a life can exist outside of capitalism? How do you go about this? An explanation here could help others emulate you. 

 

Or are you telling others to do as you say and not do as you do? 

 

Or perhaps you're running to be an MP where you could make a real difference? Because surely you're not whining and moaning about Capitalism whilst living a Capitalist lifestyle? Surely your not that much of a hypocrite, right? 

Like Paul Cleaver pointed out it's the selfish gene hypothsis - check it out. There may be nothing you I or anyone can 'do' about our behaviour. People like it when women moan, but not men, that's sexual discrimination.

'We share the same biology, regardless of ideology'.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, tree-fancier123 said:

Like Paul Cleaver pointed out it's the selfish gene hypothsis - check it out. There may be nothing you I or anyone can 'do' about our behaviour. People like it when women moan, but not men, that's sexual discrimination.

'We share the same biology, regardless of ideology'.

Thats the kind of sexual discrimination I can live with.  

 

I agree, collectively we're too greedy and selfish. I just dont see this as a Capitalist versus Communist/Socialist issue. 

[Haironyourchest]

Some wise economist, maybe Milton Friedman was debating with a Swede of some sort, who put it to him that there is terrible poverty in America, but zero poverty in Sweden. Friedman (?) replied, accuracy "You know, among the Swedish population in America, there is also zero poverty..."

 

It's also cultural. Work ethic, tradition of honesty etc. Italy is/was, an economic basket case. Very productive, but heavily indebted. Why? Endemic corruption and mismanagement. Part and parcel of the culture. Government is drawn from the People, and has the characteristics of the People. Latin America - firey, family oriented, emotional people = firey, emotional, nepotistic governments. Scandinavia - boring, sensible, honest people = stable, prudent government (for the most part). 

      

[eggsarascal]

14 hours ago, trigger_andy said:

I know Im being somewhat factious but Im genuinely asking you what your beef is with inequality and you're telling to google the dictionary definition. So thats all I can reply on if you refuse to enlighten me further. 

 

Id really like a night in the pub with you and a few other like minded guys from here. @Big J for one, @eggsarascal @topchippylesis another few off the top of my head. Im sure we'd avouid punching ach other for a few hours.  

 

Im not very well educated either, Im not sure you had to guess that though.  I stopped going to School at 14 and my poor mum had to go to a Childs Court because of that. I left completely at 15 and had to go back for my exams when I was 16. But like you I like to read and I have a passing interest in History as well, and like you I like to think Im a grafter. So we make the best of the opportunities that present themselves to us. You may have had better opportunities offered to you and vice versa I dont believe its possible to put laws in place to ensure we both had the same opportunities. And as mentioned before there is countless examples of rags to riches millionaires in the UK. Disproportionately amongst immigrants who seem to laugh at us Brits who whine and complain about the opportunities we feel we have and they just swoop in and take full advantage of that. As an empirical anecdote my Brother in London works for a Polish Lad who came over to the UK with the clothes on his back and as a Labourer on building sites and now runs a multi-million pound Construction Firm. My Brother manages the Public Sector side of the Business and I repeatedly tell him he is selling himself short for working for £50k in London, but his boss keeps him sweet with bottles of £100+ whiskys and other gadgets. I have to tell him why do you think he'd bribing you with these gifts.  

 

If you truly believe you can change the world then be the change you think you can make. I think its a crock of sheet myself, much like Karma is a concept the weak use to justify doing nothing in retaliation, they'll just repeat to themselves Karma will catch up with the offender. 

 

I belive we can all make small differences if we really wanted to, collectively we could make a difference but we're all to lazy and greedy for that.

Where was the device you connect to here made?

Where was the clothes on your families backs made? 

Who harvested your fresh produce? 

How ethical is the meat and eggs you eat?

 

You talk of making a change but if we're honest with ourselves we dont truly and deeply care enough to stop using these consumer goods. We'll fine one reason or another to justify it and invariably that will come down to blaming others. The rich no doubt? Its far easier to lay the blame and guilt at their door than our own. 

 

 

Don't miss @kevinjohnsonmbe we'd have right row.