Rigging Advice

[Mick Dempsey]

10 hours ago, Mark Bolam said:

Blocks are obsolete Matty, we just don’t know it yet.

Goddamit! I knew there was something I didn’t know.

[ArborOdyssey]

13 hours ago, jfc said:

Some good advice above, you can do a lot natural crotch rigging too. Just run the rope through a fork, add friction and super quick to set up.
Blocks/pulleys have uses though. If you need to lift a branch, you don't want friction to make it harder.
Safebloc is great, but not mid line attachable.
You'll probably want several different rigging set ups eventually to cover all options, and use whichever one is best for that job.
All the best. Jan.

Re natural crotch, it seems the optimal rope-types for hardware-based, and natty-based, systems are not one-in-the-same.  My largest hank is actually a 3-strand 3/4" poly-nylon blend, solid rope but never used it on a job because I've never had situation where it wasn't worth grabbing a sling or two and my double-braid (if you don't have much experience you'll likely be surprised when trying them, for a ton of work our most-common setup was the 3-ring x-sling with 5/8 polydyne and nothing else no 2nd anchor or bollard just a 2nd set of hands on the line if afraid 1 person wasn't enough, but even just that 3-ring sling gives notable friction)

 

Re midline attachment complaints, two things.  #1, for Safebloc specifically, it's best used as a terminal anchor in which case its position is inherently @end-of-line so "having to" thread it isn't really a drawback when it's not a device you use "mid-line" but rather end-of-line.  But, #2 for all Bend Right / Fiori's Ring / etc, no they're not mid-line attachable....that's a mighty small price to pay for a superior product IMO but even on that point I love Reg Coates & Lawrence Schlutz's sentiments on this IE that they're mid-line-leavable and this actually is important because when setting a system of this manner I may say "Ok for this section of the job I'm going to want Safebloc, another double-ring sling in-canopy, and that'll be enough so that, post-bollard, my groundie *feels* like I'm taking 250lbs pieces when I'm really taking 400lbs pieces", your worry/concern here would be that I realize subsequently "oh I should've added another ringed-sling" doesn't really hold because he'd simply add more friction via the bollard. BUT, if you really wanted to 'keep it real', you just set 1, 2 or 3 long-tail ring-slings onto the line, right above the bollard, when rigging-up.  Then if/when you want to add friction or move the line you simply grab a tail and tie it off wherever's needed

 

But yeah when you can setup systems so that heavy weights are descending smooth as butter and you can use 1 groundie where a block would've required 2, that's worth a LOT of caveats and "mid-line-leavability", not attachability, isn't a biggie I mean it's not going to be often you're thinking I wish I could add an anchor  in the middle of a session and, if/when you do, just deal w/ re-threading or use a pre-threaded loose sling as mentioned!

 

Re:

 

13 hours ago, jfc said:

Blocks/pulleys have uses though. If you need to lift a branch, you don't want friction to make it harder.

You'll probably want several different rigging set ups eventually to cover all options, and use whichever one is best for that job.

 

Pulleys certainly have uses, no doubt.  Blocks are a different story though, a pulley meant explicitly to handle smashing dynamic loads....with ample friction-anchors to choose from instead, choosing a block is basically saying "I'd prefer this anchor does nothing to slow the load" when there's anchors that do slow the load...

Pulleys are awesome, have a 4" sheave on a swivel and nearly-12mm, 1.4% rope for using it...but see it as something for use in static scenarios (lift, pull, mech.advantage), when I'm leaving that and need a sling to hold a rope that'll be used for controlling the violent free-fall of a just-cut log I will prefer an anchor that slows the load a lil *and* reduces the peak-forces experienced by the system and the tree...."Mid-line-attach" is the SOLE valid reason I've found to use a block over a friction-anchor (rings, porty's, safeblocs etc) and that's a "convenience" reason which is pretty weak for the down-grade in system quality ie trading your "built-in brakes" for mid-line-attach, poor trade IMO (nevermind that as said Safebloc is end-of-line so that argument is null for why Safebloc slings > block-slings for terminal position, once you're bumping on the upper limits of a Safebloc[or regular block] it will be your sling that you worry about not the hardware so whether Safebloc or block you may need a 2nd, but in both cases you're inherently "stacking the deck" with "built in brakes" in the system...*such* an advantage!!)

 

[ArborOdyssey]

13 hours ago, MattyF said:

Apart from agreeing the safe block is great for the situations you described I would disagree with the statement rigging blocks as obsolete!
Especially in the U.K. for tree work it any real technical rigging.
We are a small densely populated island and most of the gardens we work in have no access and trees are over targets , this is where pre tension rigging with pulleys comes in to its own and being able to fold stuff over with the help of a grcs or just hand power , no place for rigging rings there, unless it as a redirect in to a bollard drum.
Also they are not exactly a new thing, having used only topping strops and natural crutch rigging for the first 10 years of my climbing its only in the last 15 I’ve used blocks So too me it feels more of a reinvention of the wheel and a little backwards if any thing.

Re Safebloc - what about other situations, can you tell me what types of scenarios you'd be doing a routine dismantle and a frictionless block would be superior? ("regular rigging", not arguing that rings are better for lifts or mechanical advantage so we can leave that aside I hope)

 

The situation you describe in England sounds, to me, simply as "we don't get to free-fall very often", I mean the reality is almost anyone doing suburban work is working over targets more often than not, this is precisely why friction-hardware is superior - If you & I were somehow doing identical jobs, using our favored setups, and we each were finishing the back-cut on a 400lbs log.....when that log did its descent, it would generate less peak- and average-forces by pulling the rope against the friction-hardware as compared to block-based.  That's not even subjective/opinion you could put a load-cell in-between the groundie and their hand-position on the bull-line and you'd see a lower peak-force from my 400lbs log that'd gone though rings compared to yours.  Generating all of the friction at the bollard, while obviously quite effective, means there's maximal elongation of all that rope in the system in-between the load and the 'brakes'(bollard) which is why ring-based gives a subjective feeling of more control/consistency/precision. 

 

Put another way-- we're each about to cut that 400lbs log, our groundies are each holding the rope's tail as it exits the bollard and we're about to toss a sling on the stem before our cut: When looking at a Fioiri's Ring sling next to an Impact Block sling, why on earth migrate towards the one that *only* suspends the line, why not use the one that'll suspend it *and* assist w/ load-control? 

Kudos on mentioning how old they are BTW, blows my mind it took Dave Driver's proselytizing in ~2013 to get them mass-adoption (actually I feel like there was some drama over that in the context of this forum, maybe it was that someone here was already using the antal rings and splicing at-home and that's why people were upset w/ Dave's branding/sales?  I'm usually against salesmanship in general but if it's superior(more-efficient, safer etc) and it's not the norm then whatever it takes to get them out there )

[MattyF]

Not even gonna go there ..but I think you have hit it on the head when you said we don’t get to free fall often... it is not an uncommon scenario in the U.K. to work on property’s with tiny drop zones ..I’m talking a couple of metres and the tree going over 6-8 gardens , fences, sheds , greenhouses and then the whole lot has to go through the clients house as there is no access , no room for cranes on the street either ... this isn’t uncommon in the U.K. especially in city’s .. you can’t balance a large limb over a roof with dishes and Ariels and crank it up the bollard and watch it fold over off the targets and pull it in to a small DZ with friction rings as like I said most of the rigging I would do requires the ability to be able to control the piece once cut and not just free fall...fine if you can free fall but trying to pull a 400lb limb on tag lines in to the DZ is a lot easier with blocks.
When I get on the stem and it’s straight down I may choose the safe bloc for a few reasons but I could manage with out it.

[MattyF]

Here is me in 1998 with a giant rigging ring in the U.K. [emoji38]... it really is nothing new and how we did a lot of trees , blocks for me just added new dimensions to rigging just as the safe bloc gave us more scope for dealing with problem trees safely.

[Rich Rule]

On 12/04/2020 at 10:51, MattyF said:

Apart from agreeing the safe block is great for the situations you described I would disagree with the statement rigging blocks as obsolete!
Especially in the U.K. for tree work it any real technical rigging.
We are a small densely populated island and most of the gardens we work in have no access and trees are over targets , this is where pre tension rigging with pulleys comes in to its own and being able to fold stuff over with the help of a grcs or just hand power , no place for rigging rings there, unless it as a redirect in to a bollard drum.
Also they are not exactly a new thing, having used only topping strops and natural crutch rigging for the first 10 years of my climbing its only in the last 15 I’ve used blocks So too me it feels more of a reinvention of the wheel and a little backwards if any thing.

Hit the nail on the head there.

 

Rings are cool and work well to add a bit of friction.  That bit of friction can help so much or hinder a lot more.  Depends on the task.

 

To say that blocks are obsolete is a pretty narrow minded statement IMO.

 

Both have their place in my kit bag.  The blocks tend to be used 95% of the time though.

 

[ArborOdyssey]

On 13/04/2020 at 06:14, Rich Rule said:

Both have their place in my kit bag.  The blocks tend to be used 95% of the time though.

...because 95% of the time you're doing positive-angle rigging IE your anchor is above your log, you're able to pre-tension, etc?  Or are you saying you prefer negative rigging / standard 'dismantles' with a frictionless block over a friction-device?

[Khriss]

On 12/04/2020 at 10:01, Mark Bolam said:

Blocks are obsolete Matty, we just don’t know it yet.

Its Rigging, Jim.. But not as We know  it... 

 

 

(  I canny hold it!  Captain! ) 

 

 

First time I saw @Paul Poynter get an X ring with that braided blue out 9f his kitbag , I thought ain't that like those rough old 'eye on a strop ' efforts I trained on  ?  But it does work well n better on yr nylon lines nowadays.  K

Edited August 12, 2020 by Khriss

[Rich Rule]

9 hours ago, ArborOdyssey said:

...because 95% of the time you're doing positive-angle rigging IE your anchor is above your log, you're able to pre-tension, etc?  Or are you saying you prefer negative rigging / standard 'dismantles' with a frictionless block over a friction-device?

Mainly because they are midline attachable.  Plus my rigging line has a knot in the end which I would have untie to every time.   

 

[AHPP]

Has anyone tried one of those pulleys where the wheel turns one way but not the other?