Is this unreasonable?

[Khriss]

12 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Bear in mind, I’m pissed and I left the Uk in 2005.

 

Apart from that, I know what I’m talking about.

If i get two out of those three right - I'll be happy with that   ? k

[Andrew L]

Fascinating because I am the boss described by "Jack R".

 

"Is this unreasonable?"

Well in order to make a judgement, perhaps you should hear the complete story:

 

This was a complex TPO job whose main protagonist was a large 60+ft Cedar to be section (rigging) felled in the back of a garden but also involved 2 hedges, a Leylandii reduction (that turned into a fell after the owner changed her mind which meant I had to get the Tree Officer round for re-approval) and a mature apple tree deadwood and thin.

I quoted for this job back in Nov, got approval from the council in Feb but diary commitments meant it was going to be undertaken on Weds, Fri and the following Mon.   

 

Jack R agreed to work those days along with another completely inexperienced groundie.  Jack has a 30, 31 and had just completed his 38 that week.  To the best of my knowledge he has not yet done his 39.

 

Jack did the apple tree with his Silky and I also asked him if he would like to put a rope up the Leylandii for me, which he readily agreed to do.  Having knocked that out and one of the hedges we then got on with the Cedar.  Big spreading multi-limbed tree with a tiny dz and multiple targets. 90% of it needed lowering.  After lunchtime I offered Jack to get some spiking practice with my spikes up the tree using my top anchor point.  This was of no help for the job whatsoever but I thought it would be good experience for him since he had told me he had no spiking experience other than his 38.  

On day 2, I offered Jack to climb the Cedar, put up my top anchor point and also the rigging gear: purely and only to give him experience of doing so.  It took him a while but I thought it would be good for him to try doing it.  After lunch he got another go at spiking.

The job went really well, by the end of day 2 the tree was on the floor and cut up and we had walked the timber to near roadside for collection.  All that remained was raking up of the site and a hedge trim.  Bearing in mind this was Friday afternoon I said to the guys does anyone want Monday off?  They discussed it and Jack said he wanted to work.

On Monday we were finished by late morning.  But the owner also wanted some re-pointing doing and some landscaping stuff undertaking which I gladly handed over to Jack, since that was his background.  He told me he would get a full day's work out of it.

On return to base, I paid him for 2 1/2 days work at a 2nd climber rate and at no point did he tell me he was unhappy about it.

He also chopped through my tool strop which was on my 550 that he hadn't bothered to take off.  He said he would replace it but I ended up buying a new one today, 3 weeks later and he has just re-paid me for it.

 

I read his post last night and was pretty shocked by it.  I started my business last April.  It is small. I have no employees only subbies but I do my best to treat them as well as I can.  I put one of them through his CS30 last year at my expense.  I have spoken to Jack this evening on the phone and asked him why he did not feel able to talk to me about this issue.  He just said it wasn't just me, but something he had come across from lots of tree surgery companies.   I have naturally asked around my other subbies: none of them have any problem with what I have done.

 

"Is this unreasonable?"

 

[5 shires]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

Fascinating because I am the boss described by "Jack R".

 

"Is this unreasonable?"

Well in order to make a judgement, perhaps you should hear the complete story:

 

This was a complex TPO job whose main protagonist was a large 60+ft Cedar to be section (rigging) felled in the back of a garden but also involved 2 hedges, a Leylandii reduction (that turned into a fell after the owner changed her mind which meant I had to get the Tree Officer round for re-approval) and a mature apple tree deadwood and thin.

I quoted for this job back in Nov, got approval from the council in Feb but diary commitments meant it was going to be undertaken on Weds, Fri and the following Mon.   

 

Jack R agreed to work those days along with another completely inexperienced groundie.  Jack has a 30, 31 and had just completed his 38 that week.  To the best of my knowledge he has not yet done his 39.

 

Jack did the apple tree with his Silky and I also asked him if he would like to put a rope up the Leylandii for me, which he readily agreed to do.  Having knocked that out and one of the hedges we then got on with the Cedar.  Big spreading multi-limbed tree with a tiny dz and multiple targets. 90% of it needed lowering.  After lunchtime I offered Jack to get some spiking practice with my spikes up the tree using my top anchor point.  This was of no help for the job whatsoever but I thought it would be good experience for him since he had told me he had no spiking experience other than his 38.  

On day 2, I offered Jack to climb the Cedar, put up my top anchor point and also the rigging gear: purely and only to give him experience of doing so.  It took him a while but I thought it would be good for him to try doing it.  After lunch he got another go at spiking.

The job went really well, by the end of day 2 the tree was on the floor and cut up and we had walked the timber to near roadside for collection.  All that remained was raking up of the site and a hedge trim.  Bearing in mind this was Friday afternoon I said to the guys does anyone want Monday off?  They discussed it and Jack said he wanted to work.

On Monday we were finished by late morning.  But the owner also wanted some re-pointing doing and some landscaping stuff undertaking which I gladly handed over to Jack, since that was his background.  He told me he would get a full day's work out of it.

On return to base, I paid him for 2 1/2 days work at a 2nd climber rate and at no point did he tell me he was unhappy about it.

He also chopped through my tool strop which was on my 550 that he hadn't bothered to take off.  He said he would replace it but I ended up buying a new one today, 3 weeks later and he has just re-paid me for it.

 

I read his post last night and was pretty shocked by it.  I started my business last April.  It is small. I have no employees only subbies but I do my best to treat them as well as I can.  I put one of them through his CS30 last year at my expense.  I have spoken to Jack this evening on the phone and asked him why he did not feel able to talk to me about this issue.  He just said it wasn't just me, but something he had come across from lots of tree surgery companies.   I have naturally asked around my other subbies: none of them have any problem with what I have done.

 

"Is this unreasonable?"

 

You sound like a decent type of bloke and seemed to like this lad so there could be a good future in him subbieing for you long term..but surely you made enough out the job and if you paid the lad 2 1/2 days surely to save all this shit you could have payed him the other 1/2 and had a up and coming decent climber/worker for future jobs and has for cutting through your strop that’s not the end of the world is it...you even said yourself the job went really well so what’s the real issue?just pay the lad his full 3 days and everyone one walks away happy ffs the jobs harder enough has it is with out arguments over 1/2 days pay or is it the principal? If so that makes it even worse...if you get a rep for not paying what you should word spreads quickly in this game and you may find next time it won’t be so easy to get someone.inconculsion i’am not taking sides here but if I was a teacher I would bang your heads together and tell you to stop being childish.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

8 hours ago, 5 shires said:

if I was a teacher I would bang your heads together and tell you to stop being childish.

?  I’m guessing, it’s been a while since you left school??

 

Modern translation: 

 

- Have a ‘time out’

- Call a conference

- Separate each party to a ‘safe space’

 - Ensure no personal ‘sensitivities’ or prescribed characteristics were relevant

- Set up a mediation facility

- Have a day ‘working from home’ or ‘flexi time’

 - Monitor / review progress to date

 - Start again from the top and continue endlessly

 - After several years, refer to an independent adjudicator

 - Start again from the top

 

 

 

[daltontrees]

11 hours ago, Andrew L said:

"Is this unreasonable?"

 

I thought it was clear form the original post that the subby was interested in the generalities rather than the specifics of this case. From what you say, if both subbies had insisted on working 3 days you would have done something else to make it work.

 

I've been booked in to sub and then had the job cancelled the day before. I got nothing in in return. There were genuine reasons for cancellation. The contractor was one of my regulars so I just absorbed it. Had he done it a couple of times  I would have binned him. It's a free market. One could rightfully insist on a 3rd day's pay. The contractor, if he had no other work on for me, would have to pay it from his own pocket for me to sit at home, which I think is harsh. So there's rights and there's pragmatism, two different things. Neither the contractor nor the subby will want to get the reputation for being unreasonable, regardless of legal rights. So for the long haul, I don't see the point in rocking a good boat.

[Khriss]

If yr booked in, even verbally or text,  for three days and end up with two, that's Breach of Contract, simple. It's actionable for losses and costs. Not saying that would be appropriate here, but it's something to think about . Subbing cost me a lot on occasion and I could easily have made problems fr contractor. There are a lot of piss takers out there on both sides of the phone. K

[Rough Hewn]

1 day is a pisser.
I've had a 3 month contract cancelled 5 days before starting with a text.
After booking 4 months in advance.
[emoji35][emoji35][emoji35]

[Rough Hewn]

You both sound like reasonable humans.
Go and meet face to face,
Sit down with a pint and a sympathetic ear.
You'll work it out better like that than on a public forum.
Best of luck to you both.
[emoji106]

[5 shires]

1 hour ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

?  I’m guessing, it’s been a while since you left school??

 

Modern translation: 

 

- Have a ‘time out’

- Call a conference

- Separate each party to a ‘safe space’

 - Ensure no personal ‘sensitivities’ or prescribed characteristics were relevant

- Set up a mediation facility

- Have a day ‘working from home’ or ‘flexi time’

 - Monitor / review progress to date

 - Start again from the top and continue endlessly

 - After several years, refer to an independent adjudicator

 - Start again from the top

 

 

 

Yep...April 1979 but not sure what that’s got to do with it but anyway...keep it as simple as you can as in today’s climate to much fecking about with words and not enough doing or getting done what needs to be and this is why I don’t ever employ people cause the politics and the hassle involved in it takes up more of my valueble time.

[eggsarascal]

There are stacks or piss takers out there, or they are running a bad business, I sub into a company that's going through major change, the new boss man said, "I'm not paying him that", the old boss man broke it down for him, guess what, I'm cheaper than having someone on the books.