Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[Mark Bolam]

I think Scotland could make it’s own way.

Great natural resources, space, general grit and graft bred in to a lot of the population, and history has shown huge amount of intelligence and invention.

 

That said, Sturgeon and the SNP are none of this.

 

I can’t think of a worse representation of Scotland in general, they could take any country back into the stone age.

[Big J]

35 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

I think Scotland could make it’s own way.

Great natural resources, space, general grit and graft bred in to a lot of the population, and history has shown huge amount of intelligence and invention.

 

That said, Sturgeon and the SNP are none of this.

 

I can’t think of a worse representation of Scotland in general, they could take any country back into the stone age.

I agree in part, but the population is dichotomous. On the one hand, you've a lot of people who work bloody hard, who show pride in their country and want to see it succeed. On the other, you've a lot of people who are very happy to sponge off the first group. The welfare class is larger in Central Scotland than down here in Devon. Any economy whereby the majority are supported by the minority is going to struggle to self sustain without external help. 

 

That being said, I reckon that the rise and subsequent dominance of the SNP is a reaction to the archaic feudal land ownership system. Half of all of Scotland is owned by just 432 land owners, and it has the most unequal land ownership in Europe. The SNPs socialist ideals aren't in themselves ignoble, but their implementation proposals and motivations are questionable.

 

Scotland suffered over the course of the 20th century with rapid deindustrialisation combined with ill-fated social engineering (slum clearances). Even to this day, that desire to muck about with the social fabric exists, with policy being to tack bloody council houses onto pretty much every single village. Shipping people with substance abuse issues out of urban centres to rural communities in the hope that these communities will bring these people up, whereas the reality is that they just bring the communities down. Rural substance abuse is a big issue now.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but Scotland has some pretty fundamental problems to address before the notion of Independence can be again considered.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Big J

[agrimog]

this is the thing people cannot get into there thick heads......first task of a goverment in a newly independant country would be hold an election, people could then have who soever they wanted running there country

[Big J]

2 minutes ago, agrimog said:

this is the thing people cannot get into there thick heads......first task of a goverment in a newly independant country would be hold an election, people could then have who soever they wanted running there country

But an election on what basis? 

 

The case for Independence would be made off the back of a clear manifesto proposed by the government in power, which would likely be the SNP. Are you suggesting the first thing that should happen is that an election take place to give the people the opportunity to vote out the main proponent of Independence in the event of Independence? To boot out the party that has been planning how to take forward an Independent Scotland for decades will possibly be given marching orders straight after acheiving it's single stated objective? 

 

I don't think that is likely.

[agrimog]

Bij J, nice figures, but rather one sided, where does it show the revenue raised by taxation and sent south from where an amount  is then sent back, or the fact that every drop of whisky produced in scotland is currently marked down as ENGLISH exports, just because it leaves from a southern port, and surprise surprise, the tory goverment conveintly "lost" billions of barrels of oil whist doing its calculations, or the fact that oil from the new field west of the shetland islands was loaded direct to ships to prevent it being logged as production in scotish waters, there are more funny fiscall transactions over the scotish funding issue than any other thing...apart from MP's expenses

 

[Big J]

Just now, agrimog said:

Bij J, nice figures, but rather one sided, where does it show the revenue raised by taxation and sent south from where an amount  is then sent back, or the fact that every drop of whisky produced in scotland is currently marked down as ENGLISH exports, just because it leaves from a southern port, and surprise surprise, the tory goverment conveintly "lost" billions of barrels of oil whist doing its calculations, or the fact that oil from the new field west of the shetland islands was loaded direct to ships to prevent it being logged as production in scotish waters, there are more funny fiscall transactions over the scotish funding issue than any other thing...apart from MP's expenses

 

Please refer to my most recent post in the "Jokes" thread, where I made a whimsical contribution about Conspiracy Theorists.

[Johnsond]

21 minutes ago, agrimog said:

Bij J, nice figures, but rather one sided, where does it show the revenue raised by taxation and sent south from where an amount  is then sent back, or the fact that every drop of whisky produced in scotland is currently marked down as ENGLISH exports, just because it leaves from a southern port, and surprise surprise, the tory goverment conveintly "lost" billions of barrels of oil whist doing its calculations, or the fact that oil from the new field west of the shetland islands was loaded direct to ships to prevent it being logged as production in scotish waters, there are more funny fiscall transactions over the scotish funding issue than any other thing...apart from MP's expenses

 

It’s loaded direct to tankers due to nothing else but the engineering ease with  which floating/moored structures can be installed in that water depth. And please let’s not go down the fabled west of Shetland oil reserves route. The cost and risk to get that out of the ground from exploration to production is massive. When the  SNP prove themselves to be a forward thinking, fiscally adept and proficient government then maybe people will start to think it can be achieved. Relying on historical hatred and conspiracy theories really is a piss poor argument. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Johnsond

[trigger_andy]

48 minutes ago, Big J said:

Every single table shows that proportionally, Scotland receives higher spending that it takes in tax.

 

It does not help that duty on Whisky is not included. That alone would be quite sizable. Not to mention Oil revenues. 

 

50 minutes ago, Big J said:

It would be much better for the Indy camp to just accept that Scotland has a dependency and lack of self sufficiency issue,

I dont agree with this at all. Scotland can be quite prosperous on its own. 

[Mark Bolam]

Trainspotting - Going for a walk (Corrour Station)

WWW.GOOGLE.COM

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SICK BOY: Now what? TOMMY: We go for a walk. SPUD: What? TOMMY: A walk! SPUD: But where? TOMMY:...

 

[openspaceman]

11 hours ago, Mark Bolam said:

Trainspotting - Going for a walk (Corrour Station)

WWW.GOOGLE.COM

---

SICK BOY: Now what? TOMMY: We go for a walk. SPUD: What? TOMMY: A walk! SPUD: But where? TOMMY:...

 

I never saw the film but the walk out of Corrour past the grey corries and  down Glen Nevis and Steall was on my agenda till my walking companion fell ill.

 

Me if I were more than half Scottish and lived there I would want out of both and expect a lower income as a result.