Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[TIMON]

Maybe this is why the new treemotion harness has 2 bridges?
They obviously ‘saw this coming’.

No doubt this will mean that harness manufacturers can entice us with new ‘bridge tidy’ systems to counteract the inevitable congestion of so many caribiners.
This new ruling will certainly benefit some sectors of the industry. (Just not ours, he says rather cynically)
I suppose you’ve got to see the silver lining somewhere.

[skyhuck]

When rules or the law become ridiculous people begin to ignore them, this then leads to zero respect for the rules/law, which then leads people ignoring the rules or laws they used to follow. Because you're already breaking the rules, as you "may as well be hung for asheep as a lamb".

 

 So something designed to increase safety could well have the opposite affect, IMO.

[Gary Prentice]

I'm f**k*** glad I've more or less retired from climbing. 

First off, there must be something seriously wrong with the training in this industry if falls are occurring due to anchor points failing. Simply put this means that the climber is unable to select a suitable anchor point or his working practice is such that somehow he is imposing loads greater than himself on the pre-selected anchor point. I'll predict now that this new practice will lead to more failing anchor points in rigging operations than there is now.

 

Secondly, the fact that other industries operate with two lines at all times doesn't really translate into a three dimensional ever changing object like a tree. Pretty much every other industry requires an operative to gain access to a fixed position to carry out a task. It's often the case that after this task is done that's the end of the job. The multiple movements/re positioning required in our work is pretty unique and just doesn't translate. Rather than using experienced or new climbers to demonstrate two line working a better idea would have been to use IRATA trained climbers to show how they'd manage moving about in a tree. 

 

This seems like a huge step backwards creating more problems than it solves, a knee jerk reaction based on inadequate information/data to show a problem that isn't actually that much of a problem that changes need to be made.   

[Gary Prentice]

On 02/09/2019 at 06:54, drinksloe said:

So glad I rarely climb these days, sort of lost for words.

 

I'd imagine most of the reasons climbers fall out of trees is free climbing so not tied in at all. 

I know 1 company that used to give the climbers extra if they free spiked to the top.

 

Not going to say wot I really think about the HSE Nazis, but as usual do more harm than good

When I 1st started climbing was just after they outlawed screwgate carbs, I mind the instructors at time saying it was a backwards step as a screw gate won't open by itself

I've twice had a modern carb open on me by itself, both times when tied in with a few ropes and the other rope has opened it

 

The change away was an extraordinary decision by the HSE. There was a paper around at the time, commissioned IIRC by the HSE which concluded that, after testing most of the 3way crabs available at the time, they were actually less safe than a screwgate.

Go figure.

 

Almost every self-locking Krab I've ever used has malfunctioned and failed to automatically lock on wet slimy trees at some time or another. Mechanism gets filled with crap and stops working until cleaned. And because they are automatic the climber doesn't necessarily instinctively check them unlike a screwgate where you naturally physically tightened it. 

[Tom D]

I has a long chat with Simon Richmond today, we talked over this at some length. The upshot of this I will post in another thread as it needs a fresh start.

 

Suffice to say that getting this ruling / legislation overturned will be very difficult, but the new icop for climbing (currently being written) will contain certain recommendations as to when a two rope system is not appropriate. As this document has not yet been produced there is the opportunity for the industry to have its say in the process. So I will start another thread to get the ball rolling. This won’t be tonight though..

[Guest]

Well looks like that's it lads, parties over! Don't forget to pick up your kit on the way out.

Pity they didn't use average joes for the demo rather than the climbing elite.

 

[Konstantly]

1 hour ago, Tom D said:

I has a long chat with Simon Richmond today, we talked over this at some length. The upshot of this I will post in another thread as it needs a fresh start.

 

Suffice to say that getting this ruling / legislation overturned will be very difficult, but the new icop for climbing (currently being written) will contain certain recommendations as to when a two rope system is not appropriate. As this document has not yet been produced there is the opportunity for the industry to have its say in the process. So I will start another thread to get the ball rolling. This won’t be tonight though..

Interesting. Will you be opening the thread in the SRT/ climbing section? I think this may attract another audience. 

The collective brain storming in this thread is inspiring. Be good to see what others who may not venture into this area think too.

Look forward to reading your new findings..

Edited September 6, 2019 by Konstantly

[Konstantly]

 

 

[stihlmadasever]

How does this affect a rescue scenario?

Would a rescue climber have to instill 2 ropes to perform a rescue?

Also how will this affect a spiking up a stem in a rescue situation?

 

[Mark Bolam]

HSE have just confirmed you will have to wear two sets of spikes.