Climate change anyone?

[AHPP]

non sequitur
 
anyway what makes you think I think current government in UK is any good at regulation, which is what we were discussing. In fact everything points to  that growth in wealth disparity since 1970 is going the way to favour people with wealth aspirations by removing resources from regulators.

It does follow. What on earth makes you think that people who pollute appallingly are worthy of regulating how others pollute? If the example is too abstract, consider the millions of chair polishing jobs that only exist to impose and then satisfy state regulations. All those people drive to work, buy shoes they wouldn’t otherwise buy, get packaged sandwiches for lunch they wouldn’t otherwise need etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam.
Why do I think you think state regulation of stuff is good? You called for it a few posts up.

[openspaceman]

21 minutes ago, AHPP said:

It does follow. What on earth makes you think that people who pollute appallingly are worthy of regulating how others pollute? If the example is too abstract, consider the millions of chair polishing jobs that only exist to impose and then satisfy state regulations. All those people drive to work, buy shoes they wouldn’t otherwise buy, get packaged sandwiches for lunch they wouldn’t otherwise need etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseam.
Why do I think you think state regulation of stuff is good? You called for it a few posts up.

I actually said regulation, not state regulation, but yes generally voluntary codes fail so the state is the overarching authority.

 

Anyway as with many of these discussions our views are so widely divergent there is no point continuing, I have propounded some of my views on the subject, you reject them and therefore no common ground to make sensible discussion possible.

[AHPP]

21 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

I actually said regulation, not state regulation, but yes generally voluntary codes fail so the state is the overarching authority.

 

Anyway as with many of these discussions our views are so widely divergent there is no point continuing, I have propounded some of my views on the subject, you reject them and therefore no common ground to make sensible discussion possible.

It was implied if not said.

 

I'm surprisingly open minded btw. All you have to be is right.

[sime42]

The only proper regulation of a market is what comes from within the market. It’s the sadly more prevalent regulation of markets (interfering) by outsiders like government that fvcks stuff up and makes people erroneously blame capitalism.

So I bought some frozen white fish the other day from a supermarket. On reading the description it turns out that it's Alaskan Pollock packed in China. So it's traveled from Alaska to China to the UK. The food miles involved in that make me shudder. Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system. The sooner we stop doing stuff like that the better. It's crazy. That must need some kind of regulation.
If Brexit fixes problems like that then great, there is a silver lining to the cloud. I doubt it though. I heard today that we only produce 50% of our own food, the other 50% is imported. So if we reduce trade with our neighbours in Europe then we'll be forced to import more food from further around the globe. Hence more food miles. Not good.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, sime42 said:

So I bought some frozen white fish the other day from a supermarket. On reading the description it turns out that it's Alaskan Pollock packed in China. So it's traveled from Alaska to China to the UK. The food miles involved in that make me shudder. Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system. The sooner we stop doing stuff like that the better. It's crazy. That must need some kind of regulation.
If Brexit fixes problems like that then great, there is a silver lining to the cloud. I doubt it though. I heard today that we only produce 50% of our own food, the other 50% is imported. So if we reduce trade with our neighbours in Europe then we'll be forced to import more food from further around the globe. Hence more food miles. Not good.

Id say that was a massive failure on your part to be honest. If you wanna jump on that high-horse maybe do so before purchasing? Who do you think you're supporting buying Frozen fish from a Supermarket, in reality yourself and no one else.

 

When you get your feet in the stirrups mosey on down to your local Fishmonger. Be the change you wanna see then come back and preach. 

[openspaceman]

7 minutes ago, sime42 said:

Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system.

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

[sime42]

Id say that was a massive failure on your part to be honest. If you wanna jump on that high-horse maybe do so before purchasing? Who do you think you're supporting buying Frozen fish from a Supermarket, in reality yourself and no one else.
 
When you get your feet in the stirrups mosey on down to your local Fishmonger. Be the change you wanna see then come back and preach. 

Fair point. I have thought subsequently that it was also a failure on my part, I wouldn't go as far as to say massive though. I genuinely didn't think for one minute that it would be anything other than British caught fish. Naive I guess.
If I had a local fishmonger I would be in there every week, believe me. Sadly we don't have one though.

[sime42]

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

Semantics maybe. Or I didn't convey my thoughts clearly enough.
So it's a success for the market;, it's only doing what's it's supposed to, very well, creating wealth. But it's a failure for us and the planet.

[trigger_andy]

Fair point. I have thought subsequently that it was also a failure on my part, I wouldn't go as far as to say massive though. I genuinely didn't think for one minute that it would be anything other than British caught fish. Naive I guess.

If I had a local fishmonger I would be in there every week, believe me. Sadly we don't have one though.

Maybe not a massive failure, that was more an echo of your own sentiments. If its not a massive failure on your part then equally its not a massive failure on the Supermarkets either? 

 

If you're buying 6 fillets for £3.00 you'd have to be fairly naïve to believe its being produced in the UK. Its simply not a sustainable price. Three whole fish filleted and 100% prepped for you to pop on the pan all for around 10% of a Trademans hourly wage? Thats simply not sustainable for the oceans either.  You cant moan and complain if you're apart of the problem. 

 

No fishmonger local, then if you feel as deeply as you indicate then perhaps you need to shop on-line for fish and make it a more of a treat than a staple? 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by trigger_andy

[openspaceman]

28 minutes ago, sime42 said:

So it's a success for the market;, it's only doing what's it's supposed to, very well, creating wealth. But it's a failure for us and the planet.

Yes I believe so.