Chainsaw refresher, a scam?

[Khriss]

There big question here on the training and recertification front, is the HSE and the fact that our death rate is still more than 1 : 1000. Which is the Action point where you have to change yr method, redesign that hoover or change that bridge design. On here we see horrible fails which can only be prevented by correct skills - no argument. How you achieve that ain't by cheating or blagging when one fine day yr bleeding to death. K

[Haironyourchest]

11 minutes ago, Khriss said:

There big question here on the training and recertification front, is the HSE and the fact that our death rate is still more than 1 : 1000. Which is the Action point where you have to change yr method, redesign that hoover or change that bridge design. On here we see horrible fails which can only be prevented by correct skills - no argument. How you achieve that ain't by cheating or blagging when one fine day yr bleeding to death. K

Around my neck of the woods, the death rate is one per person...cough.

[Khriss]

Behave... k

[Stuart Phillips]

5 hours ago, difflock said:

Safe chainsaw use is no different to driving and dammed all to do with "training".

You remember that much quoted lie, "now you've passed your driving test, you can start to learn how to drive"??  In that sense, Chainsaws is no different to driving.   You do the basics, learn to pass the tests, and then start to learn the 'tricks of the trade' and build up competence.  As with driving, a gentle reminder of the basics... like 'mirror, signal, manoeuvre' is worthwhile (how often do you curse the bod in front for not using their indicators, or for doing it at the last minute?).

 

The issue comes with those who believe that a 'Certificate of Competence' is a certificate that they are competent.  Its like passing the driving test; it means that, on the day, at least you did the basics adequately.  Competence is all about learning those "old boy's skills" which get you out of trouble when you are half way up a hill without a winch....  And you don't get to be an 'old boy' by getting it wrong.

[Rough Hewn]

I've got my cs32 exam next week.
No training.
Only been doing this for nearly twelve years.

One tree straight fell, one tree to be hung up and winched down.
Breakdown of crown safely.

Did my cs30/31 early last year with 3 newbies and our teacher a good old forestry boy.
Second day I got sent off to fell trees and cut up windblown.
For the whole week until assessment.
Assessor took me aside and said " show me want you've been shown on the course, then on Monday carry on as before".

We all passed, but I wouldn't have let any of the newbs near a pro work site.
They still needed to be taught so much.
It's quite scary.

[spuddog0507]

9 hours ago, difflock said:

Passed 1st time at 18, been driving for 40+ years without an injury at-fault accident, been driven into quite a few times though.

Drove multiple times per year to and on the Continent, all without incident.

Towed trailers up to and incl 3500kg, and not always with a 4WD either

So, not a lot to learn, quite seriously.

Both children recently passed 1st time with 3 minors.

Motor accidents  are also virtually unheard of within my extended family.

Down to Upbringing and associated traits.

Basically defensive driving, starting with my self-taught farmer father.

Safe chainsaw use is no different to driving and dammed all to do with "training".

cheers

marcus

 

down to upbringing and associated traits,,, good quote that but very true , started driving tractors when i was 8 gathering small bail hay at my grandads uncles and several other farms then as things progressed we used to cart silage for a agri contractor, accidents had one since 82 but had a few offs when i was 18,19,20 when i thought i was Jimmy Mccrae in my opel manta ,but always kept it right end up, only damage i can remember was i smashed a headlight one night and another night i ripped both spot lights off the front bumper (road was not wide enough for length of car) on a fence post but i lern,t a,lot about driving and handling a car in them days would love to have another go at that in a manta but today i couldnt afford the petrol we used to burn it off at a alarming rate back then but at 82p per gallon you could ,

[Spruce Pirate]

9 hours ago, Khriss said:

There big question here on the training and recertification front, is the HSE and the fact that our death rate is still more than 1 : 1000. Which is the Action point where you have to change yr method, redesign that hoover or change that bridge design. On here we see horrible fails which can only be prevented by correct skills - no argument. How you achieve that ain't by cheating or blagging when one fine day yr bleeding to death. K

 

Totally agree this is HSE driven.  However, the current approach doesn't seem to be working - the accident and fatality rate is still too high.  Refresher training simply doesn't seem to be working, it only seems to be giving work to trainers while making the work-force poorer and generating ill will. 

 

I am not against training, I'm not even against refresher training, but it seems to be a box ticking exercise at present and I'm against that.  The whole system needs an overhaul if you ask me, but that's a massive subject and I'm not about to tackle it all here.  Bleeding to death while trying to blag your way through ^^^ is a pretty grizzly thought and one that we should pay more heed to.  Instead of assessing skills a day's refresher might be more effective if the effects of an accident are pointed out.  Quite graphically.  Pictures of accidents, lots of blood, broken bones, flattened body parts, families sitting on the couch missing dad (or mum) brings things home a lot quicker than just doing what you do for a living.  Most of us know how to cut trees, most of us don't like to think of the effects of an accident but getting us to do so might just make a difference.  My kids are 11, 8 and 4; what happens to them if I don't come home from work tomorrow?  That thought is likely to keep me a lot safer than any of the current refresher courses we have on offer!

 

The same does apply to driving, although the whole driving test vs chainsaw certification is not really relevant to anything in my opinion.

[The avantgardener]

6 minutes ago, Spruce Pirate said:

The whole system needs an overhaul if you ask me

I thought this was what FISA are supposed to be doing? After all, they are taking large sums of money from the public purse to make forestry safer aren’t they?What have they delivered so far apart from rebranding the already available AFAG guides? We all know that if hand cutters where paid a better rate instead of being screwed by the huge operators that back FISA, injuries and deaths would be reduced, the majority of forestry based injuries are not even chainsaw related.

[spuddog0507]

1 hour ago, Spruce Pirate said:

 

Totally agree this is HSE driven.  However, the current approach doesn't seem to be working - the accident and fatality rate is still too high.  Refresher training simply doesn't seem to be working, it only seems to be giving work to trainers while making the work-force poorer and generating ill will. 

 

I am not against training, I'm not even against refresher training, but it seems to be a box ticking exercise at present and I'm against that.  The whole system needs an overhaul if you ask me, but that's a massive subject and I'm not about to tackle it all here.  Bleeding to death while trying to blag your way through ^^^ is a pretty grizzly thought and one that we should pay more heed to.  Instead of assessing skills a day's refresher might be more effective if the effects of an accident are pointed out.  Quite graphically.  Pictures of accidents, lots of blood, broken bones, flattened body parts, families sitting on the couch missing dad (or mum) brings things home a lot quicker than just doing what you do for a living.  Most of us know how to cut trees, most of us don't like to think of the effects of an accident but getting us to do so might just make a difference.  My kids are 11, 8 and 4; what happens to them if I don't come home from work tomorrow?  That thought is likely to keep me a lot safer than any of the current refresher courses we have on offer!

 

The same does apply to driving, although the whole driving test vs chainsaw certification is not really relevant to anything in my opinion.

there was a goverment add on tv a few years ago about driving at speed through road works on the motor way with a sign with a young boy on it saying, my daddy used to work here, i fully get your point as that add made me think,

[drinksloe]

Does the +F 1st aid cousre pretty much not do that (atleast with a decent intructor)

 

I know the 1st time i done my +F the intructor shocked me with quite a lot of stuff, back then he went way of the reservation with some of the stuff he was telling us (torniquet's etc, but when they were still a big No No) basically his bottom line was anything serious at all (not just cutting based, stalking or just outdoors in remote areas) ur basically dead unless u have a phone reception and even then u could easily be hours before u get any 'real' helpand bugger all u can really do about it.

 

When i was on the railways seen a lot of different boys cutting and many scared the hell out of me, 

i wouldn't trust them to cut their finger nails never mind trees.

But they all had tickets.

 

While i'm not against more money in forestry esp to hand cutters, that would not actually solve much (apart from my overdraft ? )training/injury wise and could actually make things worse as more folk come in and try to do it

 

Not sure if i said it on this thread or a similar 1 but went down hill since they stopped u waiting 2 years after doing wee trees to medium.

U learn a hell of a lot in those 2 years often by u making mistakes taking shortcuts (usually complacncy and/or tiredness) but atleast ur making mistakes in small timber which is easier to correct (plus ur cuts have to be more precise as less room)

So when u get onto the big boys it just seems easy as u have so much room for saws and wedges

 

 

Going off topic but a lot of this box ticking/tickets is now the norm in society in general and the problem is a massive lack of common sense in a mssive % of the population (not just the youngsters) the standard of tradesmen is decreasing as are their numbers in 20 years u really will struggle to find a decent tradesman

 

More and more tickets will not help and niether will refresher courses unless they can 'refresh' some common sense into folk, its not like the trees are growing differently now to how they did 20-40 or even 5 yrs ago

Edited November 10, 2018 by drinksloe