Potus ???

[GarethM]

Just now, Doug Tait said:

 

You're inventing my thoughts and beliefs to suit your argument.

 

What I do remember is the first hand accounts of people that were given no choice but to be subjected to hell. I'm not distinguishing between races or nationalities or religious beliefs.

Think you'll find I'm not inventing anything, just using your delusional logic.

 

Oh the Germans didn't deserve being bombed, well yes and no. How else are you going to topple for example the Nazis if you don't have the population unmotivated and on its knees financially, by breaking the very structures required to make it operate.

[Doug Tait]

1 minute ago, Johnsond said:

100% Correct Doug just as most of the soldiers on both sides did not want to be there or be killing people. But to look back and judge them as war criminals by using today’s moral standards is just stupidity. End of the day the Allied forces had an obligation to finish the war as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of their own casualties . If that meant destroying cities and inflicting huge numbers of civilian casualties along the way to shorten the war the prevailing mindset at the time was that it was a price that had to be paid by the enemy. 

 

For clarity, I'm not calling them war criminals, and I understand the military argument I'd say (not me personally but I talk to my family who have quite a military pedigree).

Regardless, the experience of all kinds of people that had this inflicted on them was unimaginable.

[Doug Tait]

3 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Think you'll find I'm not inventing anything, just using your delusional logic.

 

Oh the Germans didn't deserve being bombed, well yes and no. How else are you going to topple for example the Nazis if you don't have the population unmotivated and on its knees financially, by breaking the very structures required to make it operate.

 

Well while you've constructed an argument I didn't make around Hamas and how Gerry didn't deserve it, you seem to have missed the salient point that no civilian that is subjected to the actions of a regime deserves to be obliterated in the most horrific manner.

As I said already.

 

Please try not to assume what I believe or how my opinion is formed, you do it every time we engage and you are always mistaken.

[GarethM]

5 minutes ago, Doug Tait said:

 

Well while you've constructed an argument I didn't make around Hamas and how Gerry didn't deserve it, you seem to have missed the salient point that no civilian that is subjected to the actions of a regime deserves to be obliterated in the most horrific manner.

As I said already.

 

Please try not to assume what I believe or how my opinion is formed, you do it every time we engage and you are always mistaken.

It's not assumed or opinion it's a argument you're failing to explain yourself.

 

Well why don't you explain how you would have toppled the Nazis then without civilian casualties!.

 

As my argument is literally a extrapolation of you very poor idea of war, it's not the 1700s we can't just line up in a field when a nation is at war and invaded.

[Doug Tait]

11 minutes ago, GarethM said:

It's not assumed or opinion it's a argument you're failing to explain yourself.

 

Well why don't you explain how you would have toppled the Nazis then without civilian casualties!.

 

As my argument is literally a extrapolation of you very poor idea of war, it's not the 1700s we can't just line up in a field when a nation is at war and invaded.

 

Again you missed the point. I don't need to explain myself on a point you've introduced, I never engaged in this to dictate how it should have been done. How presumptuous would I have to be to claim I knew a better way of conducting WW2! I simply wanted to voice my opinion that subjecting innocent civilians to fire bombing their cities out of existence is horrific, an horrific experience to subject these individuals that are not engaged fighting you to.

 

I disagree I have a poor idea of war, I regularly talk with a few individuals who have actually commanded this countries armed forces in action, at war, and they don't ridicule my opinion.

You embody what they would call the classic armchair general... kill them all, fire and brimstone, my weapons are bangier than theirs.

I suspect one cousin who made these decisions in real life scenarios for both this country and NATO forces, would advise go softly with your big stick hidden, hearts and minds win over obliteration because the obliterated leave a distinct legacy.

[GarethM]

3 minutes ago, Doug Tait said:

 

Again you missed the point. I don't need to explain myself on a point you've introduced, I never engaged in this to dictate how it should have been done. How presumptuous would I have to be to claim I knew a better way of conducting WW2! I simply wanted to voice my opinion that subjecting innocent civilians to fire bombing their cities out of existence is horrific, an horrific experience to subject these individuals that are not engaged fighting you to.

 

I disagree I have a poor idea of war, I regularly talk with a few individuals who have actually commanded this countries armed forces in action, at war, and they don't ridicule my opinion.

You embody what they would call the classic armchair general... kill them all, fire and brimstone, my weapons are bangier than theirs.

I suspect one cousin who made these decisions in real life scenarios for both this country and NATO forces, would advise go softly with your big stick hidden, hearts and minds win over obliteration because the obliterated leave a distinct legacy.

Because they know they can't argue with a wet lettuce when you offer no alternative except oh how bad it was.

 

It's not a case of armchair general or fire and brimstone, I've done my bit making electronics during Afghanistan for our combined forces.

 

It's not a case of bangier or brimstone, it's a case of civilians prop up a regime regardless of their political persuasion and you topple the regime bottom up.

 

And the knowledge of history also helps, what was done HAD to be done, hearts and minds is utter bs. It might lower your deaths but doesn't work long term.

[tree-fancier123]

Dresden could have been another Hiroshima, but for a few months.

If the film Oppenheimer is close to the facts they more or dropped the two bombs immediately after the first succesfull test, those bombs could have saved millions of lives, by killing a few hundred thousand Germans, if only we could have had the nukes ready by 1942.

President Trump knows China are getting near nuclear parity and so my guess is Trump may not make the 'mistake' (Chinese term for supporting Taiwan)

Will they take Taiwan during Trumps presidency?

[Doug Tait]

9 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Because they know they can't argue with a wet lettuce when you offer no alternative except oh how bad it was

 

Or they actually know who I am and what I believe in. And we don't argue, we just discuss

 

Interesting you made radios in Afghan, you can probably claim to have helped them convey the message of hearts and minds to the troops 👍.

 

I'd best get on with something tree related, have a good one.

[Big J]

3 hours ago, Johnsond said:

I’m well aware of how the ops were carried out and how bomber command were ostracised at the end of hostilities. Politicians did what they always do, send lads to do horrendous deeds then turn their back on them once it’s done. Yeah it’s a huge topic, and your hatred for the UK is well known J but to refer to the attacks by bomber command as war crimes is just left wing BS with a huge benefit of hindsight. What do you suggest they did at the time J ?? Take it easy and try and fight like gentlemen whilst millions were being exterminated in Death camps still operating at full tilt. You are a clever guy J and good at putting your point across but looking back 80 years and applying your reasoning and moral views today is bollocks. If it were not for Churchill we would be either goose stepping now or the war would have dragged on for years more.  In WW2 terms the 37000 you describe is just a mere number. You forget to mention Russian or Japanese genocide by the way. Or even most recently Hamas slaughtering Christian’s 🤷‍♂️

J reality is human beings are the most evil creatures on the planet 🤷‍♂️. 
This looking back and guilt thing  is maybe a throwback to your roots but for me those men were heroes not criminals. 

 

 

The thing is that very few in bomber command knew the totality of the plan that was carried out on Hamburg and Dresden. The flight crews were intentionally kept in the dark about the nature of their targets and the type of bombs that they were carrying. I am not blaming them for one minute. 

 

But Bomber Command knew exactly what they were doing, and what they were doing was intentionally massacring tens of thousands of people in the most brutal fashion imaginable. 

 

Look, Nazi Germany needed to be stopped, I fully understand and support that. It was a dark chapter in human history, but I do think that it's crucial to be cognizant of all actions on both sides, rather than sugar coating aspects of history that don't suit our agenda.

 

You now have a situation where Musk, his cronies and the European far right are seeking to rewrite much of the history relating to the Nazis, which is frankly terrifying. Those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it. 

 

I will fully agree with you that humans are mostly awful, or at the very least, capable of being utterly awful. We think we're civilised but we really aren't.

[Johnsond]

15 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

The thing is that very few in bomber command knew the totality of the plan that was carried out on Hamburg and Dresden. The flight crews were intentionally kept in the dark about the nature of their targets and the type of bombs that they were carrying. I am not blaming them for one minute. 

 

But Bomber Command knew exactly what they were doing, and what they were doing was intentionally massacring tens of thousands of people in the most brutal fashion imaginable. 

 

Look, Nazi Germany needed to be stopped, I fully understand and support that. It was a dark chapter in human history, but I do think that it's crucial to be cognizant of all actions on both sides, rather than sugar coating aspects of history that don't suit our agenda.

 

You now have a situation where Musk, his cronies and the European far right are seeking to rewrite much of the history relating to the Nazis, which is frankly terrifying. Those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it. 

 

I will fully agree with you that humans are mostly awful, or at the very least, capable of being utterly awful. We think we're civilised but we really aren't.

Our views on Bomber command and you referring to raids as war crimes are never gonna align, to compare those lads actions in the same context ie war criminals as the SS and Wermacht killing squads is utterly ridiculous. 
Bomber crews knew the target and the make up of the bomb load on every flight J. I suspect they just wanted the Germans to quit even it was obviously a lost cause, sadly they didn’t.