Mull

If you’re trying to surprise me tvi, you failed.

Don’t talk shite Mark, how’s anyone supposed to argue with that?

Incredible, the amount of time and research that is going into the debates on this thread, and to what end? But, what the hell, it’s good fun. Though maybe the thread title should be changed to ‘How important is your cyber ego to you today?’ Keep it up guys, six peoples opinions might change Britain or the World even, but I feckin doubt it.

Much to the disappointment of arbtalk:-(

[emoji42]

Why, thank you sir.

Masturbator not master?? Get it right!!!

Exactly[emoji849]!

It’s been a long wait[emoji106]

Almost forgot, get it up ye....???????[emoji464][emoji2]

They’re all I after c? Not before[emoji15]

I’m afraid you’ll have to work that one out yourself tvi.

That’s the one!

Exactly, and your making them the Boss! And we all know there is only one “ Boss”

Never give a child choices, a mistake made by many adults sadly.

America’s answer to its gun problems... More guns! I mean if that doesn’t sort it out nothing will!! Not an easy job for teachers eh? ‘Do I shoot the kid when he’s shot another kid or do I shoot him before he tries to shoot someone? Then I’ll be the only one that’s shot anybody[emoji15]. Mmmm!

Or... you might not do any of that, and just keep signing on.....[emoji849]

Aye the problems built up over the decades are obvious enough, it’s the solutions that are hard to come by, as government after government have proved.

Brilliant band leader, brilliant band, only seen him live 3 times, but been listening for a while! First time I saw them was a while ago now.1985...

Hadn’t seen this thread but just happened to be watching songs of praise as one does;-) Well done Timon, respect, you had a lucky escape, just in time by the sound of things.

Do you have another frame of mind??[emoji848]

Did you by any chance, have a coat of many colours?

A fb post I read today You are right to mention "pasture raised...produced in ways that can be maintained in perpetuity..." because when the meat is raised through grain feed (and the overwhelming majority of that produced in the US is) then the energy ineficiency of grain-fed meat production is just terrible and the ecological consequences are destructive. According to Mark Shepard, in the book, "Restoration Agriculture": "What is not so obvious is the energy loss when annual grains are fed to livestock. On average only 10 percent of any organism's food energy is converted into that creature's body. The remainder is used as fuel for the creature's metabolic processes, is dissipated as body heat, or is excreted. This phenomena has been researched and documented extremely well for hundreds of years and has led to what is called the tropic pyramid... If a human being eats 10lbs of corn directly, approximately only one pound of that corn becomes (nutritionally deficient) human flesh and bone. The remainder is used as the energy for metabolism or is flushed down the sewer. If a cow eats 10lbs of corn, approximately one pound becomes cow, or in this case, beef steer. Where the implications of the tropic pyramid become sinister is when human beings eat meat that was raised on grain. At this point the human being becomes a secondary consumer. Once again it is only approximately 10 percent of the energy of the previous tropic level that becomes converted into the biomass of the consumer. A human being eating beef would consume 10lbs of beef to build one pound of human flesh. This is the trophic level argument where vegans are absolutely correct. If a human eats one pound of corn-fed beef, they are actually consuming 10lbs. worth of corn. If it takes 10lbs. of beef to make one pound of human, that means that a corn-fed beef eating person is eating the equivalent of 100lbs. of corn in order to gain one pound... Now according to our tropic level calculations, in order to get 1,050 lbs. of bovine, we need to feed it approximately 10,500 lbs of corn. For that 10,500 lbs of corn, all we get is a lousy 569 lbs of meat. Live weight to carcass yield-to-edible meat makes the trophic loss even more extreme." In a rivalry, like the one going on here: "vegan vs non-vegan", the complexities of reality become simplified to magnify the dichotomy. Reality is that in Vermont (not a dryland), where you live, Seth, it's easier to obtain properly raised pasture grazed meat. What an outstanding farming culture there is in Vermont! But in many places (the entire corn belt of the US, which includes where I live, south western Kentucky), that is not the case. Overwhelmingly the meat in distribution is grain fed; you've got to go looking for the right farmer. It's in this disastrous grain-based conventional agriculture (sadly supported and spread by the extension arms of most US universities), that US vegans become confused, in part because they are unaccustomed to witnessing livestock raised in sustainable agricultural systems. It's not like we're blessed with herders like Dalmas Tiampati around here; neither are there many farmers like Peter Allen or Mark Shepard--yet. Most meat in distribution represents an ecological disaster in our current food system. Believe me, I'm trying to work for these changes. But the young farmer today is up against systemic pressures, including access to land in a corporate consolidated agricultural economy. It's going to take a sustained social movement in all of our regions, collaborations with regional institutions, to steer the course of change over the next generation. In my opinion, land use can be redesigned in a holistic context of the place and circumstances to support a vibrant local food network. In the cities, primarily vegetables, herbs, flowers, mushrooms, and tree crops; maybe some chickens. In the small rural properties, annual and perennial crops, tree crops, mushrooms, fowl. In the larger rural landscapes and especially the drylands, holistic planned grazing, multi-species grazing, and perennial polyculture. Appropriate design, and the food system generated from it, is contextual to so many complex realities. Many thanks for your efforts, Seth. Especially those having to do with Soil 4 Climate and with Dalmas and the Massai in Kenya. [emoji172]