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Hi John, Are you suggesting the variety is coming true on its own roots? I'd be interested in anything you can throw in on the original location of the variety, and a description of the fruit and the form of the mature tree. I might be able to help with a tentative identification, at least of type, and some of the obscure local varieties are beginning to become more recognised now by various groups. I've dug out Grubb's comments on canker, reproduced below. It's long, and detailed, but may be of interest. Personally, I'd trim out the damaged area when the tree starts to grow. There's not a lot to be gained by doing it sooner - both the canker and the tree are dormant so neither is moving at the moment, and you want to avoid secondary silver leaf infection. Alec From Cherries, by Norman H. Grubb, 1949: Bacterial Canker This disease, common to plums and cherries, is probably the most serious and widespread disease of sweet cherries in England. It has been present in the variety collection at East Malling since the early years, and has in several cases, mentioned in the variety descriptions here given, made it impossible as yet to obtain a description of the mature tree habit. There can be few cherry-growers in England who have never seen trees injured by Bacterial Canker. Signs of it have been seen in every cherry district, and in every nursery where cherry-trees are grown, which the writer has visited. Even in orchards which appear at first sight to be entirely free from it, if trees of any of the highly susceptible varieties, like Napoleon or the three "Mezels", are present, some indications of the disease will almost certainly be found. There are still some cherry-growers who do not know the reason for the death of branches or whole trees in their orchards, usually with the exudation of large quantities of gum. A short description of the symptoms commonly seen may therefore be useful. The disease is often present in winter, without any obvious signs. More than once, as late as May, we have congratulated ourselves on the few signs of canker in the cherries, only to find later on quite as many trees and branches dying as usual, and sometimes more. The major symptoms are most obvious from midsummer onwards. Where whole trees or large branches are affected, they can be seen from long distances; the foliage loses its healthy green colour and, and becomes yellowish or brownish. It may drop long before the usual time; or if the tree or branch is quickly killed, it may remain and dry up, like the dead leaves often remaining on oak and beech trees in winter. The exudation of gum from the lower parts of affected branches, or from the crotches or stems of dying trees, is a common symptom, but not quite universal; cases have been known of the death of branches and trees, due to Bacterial Canker, with little or no gum exudation. The gum, when present, is dissolved or softened by rain, and frequently drips on to the lower part of the stem or the ground. It is true that gum may be exuded in small quantities in the absence of Bacterial Canker; any mechanical injury to the bark may cause it. But where large quantities are present - the condition known to our ancestors, and still often called, "Gumming" - the only cause so far certainly known is Bacterial Canker. The fact that Hogg remarked of our most susceptible variety, Napoleon, "the tree is a very vigorous grower, very hardy, and not subject to gum" does not necessarily indicate that there is more than one cause of "gumming"; the explanation may be that the disease was less widespread in Hogg's day than in ours, or perhaps that the form Hogg described was more resistant to disease than the one we now have. A very common symptom in wet springs is "Bacterial Leaf-Spot". The relationship between this and the death of spurs due to bacterial attack on the one hand, and the cankers in branches and stems, on the other, has not yet been fully worked out. It is known, however, that two organisms are concerned; their relative frequency is still obscure, as is also the possibility of one form of the disease giving rise to infections of other forms. There are other causes of "leaf-spot" in cherries besides bacterial infection; and spurs of some varieties are commonly killed by Brown-rot. Thus, in the absence of expert identification, these symptoms cannot be assumed to be due to bacterial infection. A partial control of Bacterial Canker has been worked out, consisting of spraying with Bordeaux mixture twice annually. An application as nearly as possible at the time of leaf-fall is given at a strength of 10lb of copper sulphate and 15lb of hydrated lime to 100 gallons of water; this is repeated in spring, shortly before blossoming, at the lower concentration 6-9-100. Severe damage to the foliage can be caused by using too high a concentration for the spring spray, or by applying it after blossoming. The control resulting from these treatments is not at once apparent. In the summer following the first applications there may be little or no difference between sprayed and unsprayed trees, doubtless because most of the infections then appearing took place before the leaf-fall application. But with susceptible varieties the repetition of the sprays over a two- or three-year period is said to give enough control to be well worth the cost. The disease in its stem and branch forms seems also to be partly controlled by cutting out infected branches or trimming the discoloured bark from infections on the stem. The control is by no means complete, possibly because re-infection takes place through knife- and saw-wounds; painting the cut surfaces may reduce the risk of re-infection, but does not seem to prevent it altogether. Trials are in progress to test the effect of frame-working susceptible varieties on the branches of root-stocks or named varieties known to be more resistant. There is little to indicate that the mere fact of working the susceptible scions on a resistant frame will increase the resistance of the scions; but at least in such frame-worked trees the crotch (one of the most commonly infected parts of susceptible trees) will be resistant. If one branch is killed by the disease, others may survive. Wherever the disease is known to be troublesome, provided the soil is not unsuitable for cherries, much can be done by planting only the more resistant varieties. For this reason, the brief tree descriptions in this volume include any available information about the susceptibility of the varieties to the disease at East Malling, and sometimes elsewhere. This should be of some help to prospective planters. Reports received from growers in many districts, however, suggest that the relative susceptibility of varieties may to some extent differ in different conditions. Thus Roundel - at East Malling one of the most resistant varieties - is sometimes reported as susceptible; whilst Bradbourne Black, which at East Malling is often rather susceptible, appears in some orchards to be more resistant than some which are less affected at East Malling. For these contradictory observations there may be more than one explanation. In the first place, the varieties may not be identical. It is known, for instance, that the names "Roundel", "Bedford Prolific", and "Bedford Black" are used for several varieties, some of them so closely similar in fruit as to be almost indistinguishable; and there certainly exist slightly "variant forms" of what may be regarded as the same variety, some of which probably differ in their susceptibility to the disease. Secondly, the susceptibility of certain varieties seems to vary with the age of the tree. Some, of which Schrecken and Bradbourne Black are examples, appear to be rather susceptible when young, and to "grow out" of it as they become mature; others, such as Elton, and perhaps Waterloo, appear to become more susceptible when mature. Such changes in susceptibility may be more common than is at present known; the variety collection at East Malling contains no more than two or three trees of most varieties - not enough to give reliable indications.

Thanks David, very interesting to get a bit of background on the longer term plan. I suppose in the grand scheme of things there weren't any grey squirrels in the UK when any of the original pollards were being formed, or probably even last worked. Alec

Cheers Tony, This is the same as the thread last Thursday linking to the news article, but the information here is much more useful! I finally tracked it down from the original article, having been passed through several hands and spoke to Yolanda this morning, who is kindly going to check whether my saws are amongst them. I think Jonesie had already been in touch from her comments, if so anything officially registered should also get picked up. Alec

Any details on the tree they were suckers from - approximate age and size, and where in the country? Also, was it top-worked (grafted at the top, at about standard height) or grafted near to the ground? The reason for the questions is that this will narrow down a likelihood as to whether it's Colt, F12/1 or seedling cherry. This will give a clue as to likelihood of susceptibility. Ultimately though, it hasn't girdled the tree and bacterial canker is annual rather than progressive, so this particular canker won't get any worse. Further control is a combination of cutting out heavily diseased branches (such as that side branch), minimising stress on the trees, and deciding whether or not to spray (copper-based fungicide). Minimising stress means keeping grass away from the trunk so there's less competition for water. Your mulch of well rotted manure will help here, although you don't want to overdo it and get lax growth. Sandy soils are likely to give you more of a problem with drying out, although the normal 'bad' soil type is heavy clay leading to waterlogging. Longer term, some varieties are more susceptible than others. The classic book on cherries ('Cherries' by Norman H. Grubb) contains some text where he's bemoaning the fact that, whilst trying to establish the national trials at East Malling, unfortunately the site wasn't very suitable and some varieties he couldn't even get to fruiting size before they died, so he couldn't identify them! Alec

Looks like bacterial canker to me - what variety are they and whereabouts in the country (also, what's the soil like)? Alec

Going slightly against the trend here, but your aim is to make it less likely to be stolen? In which case, might it be better to do the worst paint job on it you can? If you do a nice job, in an unusual colour, there's still the risk that the thieves aren't that clued up, and steal it because it looks decent. A few squirts from a fluorescent pink spray can should make it pretty unattractive. Just a thought. Alec

Hi David, I've never visited this site, but one aspect has me intrigued. At the moment, you are managing a gradually dwindling stock of pollards, which host a range of rare species. The younger beeches do not appear to be pollarded. Although the work you are currently doing is designed to hold back the years so far as possible, I wondered what the succession plan was, long term. This had me thinking in parallel with the other current thread on the subject of pollard creation. Are you creating new pollards at all, and if so, are you doing so only from small trees, in line with the applicable BS, or are there any plans to try creating some prematurely veteranised pollards, to accelerate generation of host habitat? I'm thinking of things like the image of the topped beech which you put up earlier in the thread, for example, which looks like it could be gradually lowered to 'classic' pollard height, and given the large central cut, should rot out fairly quickly. Just interested in the long-term plan. Alec

I can't see any immediate problems with what you're proposing, so long as you don't 'rock' the saw in the cut, which would result in bringing the kickback zone into play as the only cutting part of the bar, with consequent risk. Clearing sawdust is more tricky - it can't drop out of the cut and gets dragged round the nose, but it's been OK on the few occasions I've done anything like this. I made an angle piece once, out of an 8" square oak beam, by cutting out a 6"x6" block, leaving an L piece 8"x2" on each side. All went fine. I did mine with an ordinary Alaskan, just took the endpost off and re-set the bar depth. It was a bit oversize though, using a 3' bar to do the above! Alec

Hypothetically you could use it sideways, but it wouldn't be advisable. It's much easier to set up a guide rail on top of a log than on the side (gravity). If you do manage it, it's hard to keep the saw truly horizontal, whereas from the top you can see what you're doing more easily. The outer end of the bar is unsupported, so more likely to wander the longer it gets. I would have thought 24" would be a sensible upper limit. Alec

I'd agree with that - the 051/mini-mill combination would allow you to edge things, get cants down to a width you can fit through the Stihl mill without rolling etc. It should also cut narrower boards well enough. Alec

They were a good mill (were because they're no longer available new, not because they were superceded). The seller mis-advertised the .cc of the 051 - it's 89cc rather than 81cc, which is all to the good as the more power the better. As has been said, if everything is square, true and moves as it should (or doesn't as it shouldn't) there's not much more to check. The only limitations are that you will need two people to run it as currently configured (although you can always get a 41" roller-nose bar and a bigger powerhead and go to single-operator if needed) and that the width is fixed rather than adjustable. Enjoy your new toy:thumbup: Alec

I'll be taking a punt on this if it doesn't go stupid, to replace the one that was stolen last December (no, it's not the same one). Alec

Well, it was our anniversary last year, and I still haven't had any bits sliced off, so all's well so far:biggrin: I think the quality of workmanship of the Japanese master smiths is second to none. It's a whole culture of doing things absolutely the best way possible for quality, rather than handle-turning mass production, and it shows. Alec

I had this made for my wife on our 10th anniversary. It's a Japanese Santoku chef's knife made by Yoshikane and the blade is in stainless damascus steel (makume). Alec

It's just that you get a really disappointing result with 1111 (and 1106) saws if you have a stock chain in poplar. Stick it through a 4ft oak and it's a different story! Alec

If you're having a race, get your chain set up first. These saws are all about torque, not speed, so with a standard sprocket they don't pull the chain that fast, but they never bog down. That means that to get the most out of it, take the rakers down on the chain as far as you possibly can without it bogging down. You need to decide if you're racing in something hard like oak, or soft like poplar, and roughly what size, as that decides how much you can take off. Alec

What do the other owners think? If they've been using it as a dumping ground, have the people who did that now gone, or is that still the prevailing attitude? If it is, I would be inclined to take a calculated approach to bramble clearance - for example if the woodland backs onto your gardens, I would leave brambles alone in a wide belt backing onto the other gardens so as not to make access for dumping easier (they're perfectly at liberty to clear it themselves!) Children in my experience love mazes and secret tracks, so rather than wide open clearance, plenty of crossing paths would meet this need better, with the odd small clearing to build dens/camps in. Are there access points that adjoin public land/roads? If so, these are also obvious places to make sure bramble cover remains thick, and tree planting distance is closer. This is less about trying to stop people, more about avoiding scrambling bikes and burnt out abandoned cars. Sounds like a really nice place to have access to though.

Depends how much you've been offered them for. But, if the saws start and idle, then run up (and revs drop quickly when you let go of the throttle) I would be inclined to think good rather than bad. Alec

There's obviously a soft central core of rot, but if the dark coloured zone immediately outside it is hard then I would mill that. You'll get some great dark/light colour contrast boards out of it. If that zone is soft, I'd lop firewood-length rings off it until I hit solid (or ran out of log) and stop when it was mostly solid, then start milling if there's enough left. The other option, if you've got access to suitable kit, would be to run a single cut, right up the centre, and see how it looks, then decide. I certainly wouldn't instantly firewood it though from that image. Alec

Really good to meet those of you who were able to make it, and no worries on rate of progress - some trees got done, which was all to the good, and it was never really about rushing through it. I've done a dozen or so more this afternoon and will get the rest of the dwarf ones finished tomorrow morning. I would echo Likeitorlumpit's thanks to Mark, particularly for his masterclass on the use of string:001_smile:. There were hints and tips there which I would never have guessed at on how to get particular results from the available material and several of the trees will be noticeably different for it in a year or so. Several people took photos, so they should appear over the next couple of days. Should be possible to run it again next year - there will be plenty of big Bramleys that will still be suitably challenging! Alec

If you're looking at secondhand, condition and use are more important than age. The 066, which is the same thing before it got renumbered, didn't have any chain brake problems that I'm aware of. Alec

OK, the simple bit is how to calculate. Work out the circumference halfway along the sawlog in inches(rounded to the nearest whole number). You will probably have to guess a bit unless you can climb up to it. Divide this number by four. Square it. Divide by 144. Multiply by the length in feet. The above is the number of Hoppus feet in your log. The measurement is made over the bark. It allows for this in the calculation and is an estimate that lies between measured cubic feet of total volume, and measured cubic feet of heartwood, so is a bit of a guesstimate at useable timber, but is as fair as is practible to both buyer and seller. The other question is, why do you want to know? It's only really useful for buying and selling. For your own use, measuring top diameter of the useful timber, dividing by two to get radius, squaring, multiplying by 3 (approximation to pi) and then length gets you a more useful figure of what you might get out of it. Alec

You don't necessarily need to. If you've got more sticks the same thickness you can drive them in between the boards with a mallet, without moving anything - I've done this before when I was short on sticks at the time of milling and had to sort them out afterwards. Alec

I think there are other factors too. Firstly, demand for firewood is currently right up, and it's quick and easy to firewood something rather than put time into trying to sell it for milling. Secondly, in some cases there is a very inflated perception of value. The difference between sawlog prices and firewood prices is not often that great (between 1.5 and 2x for something fairly ordinary). However, people who sell firewood often value the log based on what they can sell it for once processed and seasoned, leaving out all the equivalent labour cost and waiting time. They also see the price per cubic foot of seasoned timber and assume that relates closely to sale value - not factoring in transport, processing time, capital investment in mill, seasoning space, and yield (firewood is effectively 100% yield, milling you're lucky to get 60% final volume used). I'm usually interested in certain species (e.g. plum/blackthorn/damson, pear, walnut, oak, sweet chestnut), and will travel a fair way for the first couple and a reasonable distance for the latter, but I'm not overwhelmed with offers, so demand is probably still reasonable overall. Alec