Rob D

The 2 lads probably got £20 each (not bad on top of your giro!) and matey felt good putting £100 in his pocket.... (on top of his sickness benefit!) Ridiculus but they're out there. Why does joe public employ them?

I know it depends a lot on what gear you have, who works for you, how fast you work etc. etc. but in the past I've found myself working 12 hour days 6 and a half days a week not including the paperwork side - it seemed like I had to to get on and earn the money for new gear. These days when someone takes a step backwards and struggles for breath after I give a quote I just say 'that is what the job is worth to me' and walk away. Some of these still come back to go ahead with the work. I like to know roundabouts what the competition is charging purely out of curiosity/interest - it doesn't affect my pricing. IMO we should get paid a lot more than we do - if you think about it if you looked at £60 to £70 per hour for 2 trained blokes, a truck, chipper, insurance (taking a rough/general rule of thumb from previous posts just to try and put a price on it!) then compare that to other skilled trades such as plumber, electrician, brickie, carpenter etc who e.g charging say £40 to £50 an hour for just 1 person working out of a small van (again just as a rule of thumb!).... .... it just seems that our trade seems to be selling itself short (again IMO as there are obviously people out there quite happy with what they earn).

I think luck and timing has a lot to do with it... Also a lot depends on who is new starting up in the area and whether an old hand has hung up his saw. I wouldn't like to be in business within a 20 mile radius of Sparsholt college

Thanks gents that's some great feedback here. There's quite a lot of variation depending on what part of the market your in, whether private or commercial, whether you employ a team or it's you and a groundie etc, and what equipment you have. Most people including myself prob give a fixed quote but calculate the quote by how many days/people/equipment would be involved.

Cheers for the feedback guys. I Know it's difficult to put exact figures but a rough guide is good. Keep it coming - don't be shy! How about you Treeline - I'm not looking for popularity just a few ideas on what other people out there are charging. We all complain we don't get paid enough so how much are you getting paid? If I wanted loads of replies I would have started a thread 'what do you think is best Stihl or Husqvarna?' But my main gripe with this industry is we get paid bugger all for a skilled and dangerous job. So instead of just moaning about it I'm trying to do something about it.

Just doing some research for an article for EssentialArb and want to find out how much people are charging out there for a days work. If you want a mention in the mag with the info you've given then please also put in that I have permission to use it. It seems to me as a profession we work bloody hard mainly just for the opportunity to buy the next bit of kit. But how much is the going rate? It's not a competition but if you could give a brief description and then price. Also how much are you paying in insurance and what part of the country you are from. Any additional info like how much you pay your employees. E.g For a 2 man team with truck and chipper I look for at least £400-00 per day. For a 3 man team with truck and chipper £500-00. Includes getting rid of all waste. Hire of MEWP or additional equipment is on top of this. Skilled climber if sub contracted in £120 to £140 per day, unskilled groundie £7.50 per hour. Insurance for me costs £2600-00 which includes 3rd party liability, damage/theft of tools and employers liability.

If you enjoy what you're doing I'd carry on with just you and a groundie (who can climb/aerial rescue) and try selling your waste products. Firewood is a winner now and unless you are in an area where everyone cuts their own/very rural it makes you good money. Almost a third of my income now comes from firewood. And this is hand splitting - but the trick is to split it staright after ringing it - dries faster and splits easier. You can try planking your better timber with a chainsaw mill - make basic furniture and features. This does not take skill (I can do it) and the amount of planks of a single tree means you can make umpteen table and bench sets. Then chipping mulch is a good one if you can find a market. I'm selling a 1.25 tonne (maybe just over) truckload for £70-00, half that £40 (these are composted chippings) or fresh from a job £30-00 a truckload. But these things are all longer term, need more patience and do not give the instant £ but are great earners if you persist. And they are all linked with what you're doing and you don't need to employ anyone else. I have found if you keep speaking to all those around you be it customers, other trades friends and family people start coming to you looking for logs/chippings/furniture.

Great to watch but didn't look that safe! The speed they were taking the slack in on the main rope you would not want to get it caught round a boot or your saw as it went up! Wonder what happens if they try and lift a section through the trees and it gets stuck? I suppose there is a quick release option at the helicopter end.

Just for the record I have full employers liability - indeed I am insured up to the hilt! Of course you need to have liability for your sub contractors. You need to have proper emergency procedures in place and you need to discuss risk at each job. I make an effort to work safely and for the people I work with to work safely but I don't feel on many jobs that a written risk assessment reduces risk or makes me or the people I work with any safer - so I don't do one. Secondly its not that I can't be arsed to do the paperwork - I do written risk assessments on more unusual, dangerous work or jobs next to roads etc where risks are greater but this is a rarity. But I do not do the paperwork just for the sake of ticking boxes on umpteen forms so I have a backup for a later court date. If I saw a point to the paperwork then I would do it i.e. it's not laziness or lack of time. I've been in a few tribunals albeit in the health world many years ago and many associated issues can be transfered over to the arb world. Yes you should have a hard copy of a risk assessment but if you can demonstrate in court the ways you mitigated risk and can back this up with evidence of controls carried out on the day then you can still prove that you have assessed risk. If you employ any number of people in the conventional way you really have no choice but to follow convention and do the paperwork. In a practical way and getting back to the main thread what I am suggesting is at least make the risk assessment as concise as possible with a box at the bottom to cover any unusual elements. To a certain extent I'm playing devil's advocate here - but I am standing up to be counted rather than a great many who complain endlessly about how meaningless a lot of health and safety is but do and say nothing against it.

But what you're saying is that you're doing the risk assessment to make sure the insurance company pay out - not to mitigate risk! I spent a long long long time speaking to Bryant and Kesek about how my insurance works and when and how it will pay out. In short it will pay out if I am grossly negligent and cause damage to persons or property through my own wrong doing/foolishness. However if there is an accident and I have taken all due precaution to avoid it then there is a chance the insurance won't pay out. It's an accident and so there is a chance the customer would have to claim on their own insurance. I am not prepared to fill out forms for the sake of it. In court if it comes to it I will stand up and say what precautions were taken and how I assessed and acted on risk. But I have a very small operation with no employees (I use people only on a sub contracting basis). With a larger company you have no choice but to follow all the procedures. And that is why I will never be a large company!!

Being honest here are people doing risk assessments for say pruning an apple tree? Or maybe small reduction on oak in a back garden? Or doing risk assessments at all? I started doing them 2 years ago when I had a student, did 3 or 4 then wondered why I was bothering. You only need them if something goes wrong to prove you've assessed the risk and taken the correct precautions. I used to work in the health service and spent my life filling in forms. So out in the open here I don't do a written risk assessment unless working where you need to show one or the job is particularly involved or complex. However I assess risk and act accordingly at every job I do - I just don't write it down. Also I don't know anyone else doing tree work near me that has a lovely tidy book of filled in risk assessments and method statements. The main reason I will write a risk assessment is so that people know what to do when something does go wrong i.e. where is first aid kit? do you have a mobile signal? nearest hospital, address where we're working for ambulance etc. If I'm working by a road then signs will be put out and if needed traffic lights. If working over a public footpath then groundsmen need flourescent jackets and a signal system to say the path is clear. Dangerous tree - get a MEWP. But do we have to write all this down every time? It's a meaningless waste of ink to run down a form sticking in a long line of ticks to show we've considered that or considered this. Do we have to write 'road' = high severity, likelihood of incident high, therefore controls to reduce risk = signs out, high vis jackets on, traffic control in place. It's obvious we need to do this working by a road. But in the real world we have to have something. But if we do have to have something can we not cut through all the bulls*@t and fit it onto a single A4 page! Not saying mine below is any good - just trying to bring something constructive to the party! Risk Assess.doc This below is the sort of thing I think is just a waste of time and paper. Risk Assess2.doc

Sorry - my bags are 0.8 m3 ! Measure 90cm by 90cm by 90cm but with them bulging and well filled I reckon 0.8m3 of logs is what you get (not 0.9m3!)

Sounds like you have the right attitude going on. If you're prepared to do what's needed in the short term i.e. splitting logs etc then you have a good chance. Local papers I find are the best way to advertise for private work. Also I know you probably just want to do tree surgery but if you have a mower and a strimmer grass cutting at this time of year is a good one and you should be able to earn pretty good money from it (price by job/lawn and not by hour - there's incentive then for working hard). When I started I put 2 ads in the local paper. One was a boxed ad with all the trimmings for tree surgery etc. The other was a small lineage ad that read something like 'local professional person available for mowing lawns. Good rates and reliable service'. Always got a good result.Then as time goes on you can drop the jobs you don't like.

I get my bags from these people at Builders Bags: UK suppliers of builders bags and sacks Free delivery and they also do these smaller green bags for less than a quid each. I measured them at 0.9 m height, width and length which gives you 0.729 m3 but I think well filled with sides bulging they'll have 0.80 m3. I tell people the bags are almost a cubic meter. Selling these at £60 hardwood, £50 mixed, £45 softwood only. As for trading standards there are loads of people around me selling wet wood for £40 a load.... how come they don't pick these people up?

I've been with Bryant and Kesek for 7 years and just found that the service is good. If I want to know something then I call and they tell me. If I want to add something I call and they add it on. I never trust anyone who price matches. Give me your best price first. Just to get back to the initial post I've built up a big stock of dry firewood this year and I'm almost thinking what happens if someone decides they want to see a big bonfire? Can you insure the wood itself? And does anyone else insure their wood? It's stored in polytunnels and I wouldn't like to think what would happen if someone lit one end!!

I got a cheap moisture meter off ebay but I'm not all that sure how good it is. After pulling dry wood out of a bag it seems to come back different readings. Have you bought this one and is it any good? Or does anyone out there know of a good moisture meter below £100 that is accurate without having to really force it into the wood?

I'm getting fully geared up for logs this year. Last year I sold out in 6 weeks and during that time was getting a average 10 answerphone messages a day for logs. Sold around 140 loads/bags. This year I'm aiming for 300 loads/bags. I tend to do the big builders type dumpy bay (0.9 cubic metre) hardwood £60, mixed £50 and softwood only £45. For a loose 1.2 cubice metre hardwood load is £80 and mixed £70. Softwood as long as it is dry will burn fine and produce lots of heat. Athough of course you may get a bit of sparking and it won't last as long. Most of my customers seem to have been educated with 'hardwood good' 'softwood bad' but I think with these modern log burners dry softwood is the best thing to get the bed of the fire going. The key is to split all your logs as soon as possible - on site even. Green wood is so much easier to split. I then bag them and then lift into a polytunnel where the temperature can get up to 40 degrees C. There are so many people near me selling loads for £40 that were wet but it just makes my logs look even better. All those people who have spent £2000 + on a log burner are not going to leave it just sitting there whether it's cold or not. It used to be firewood was something you did if you had a bit of spare time but now you can make good money with it. I suppose what puts a lot of people off is that you have to split and store the wood months before you get any income but I'd say if you're a tree surgeon bringing wood back to a yard you're mad not to start setting up selling wood in a small way.

I'm not just trying to plug my chainsaw mills but I would have given you a mill in return for half the planks you could have got out of this. You're looking at some of the richest coloured wood in existance here!! With the size of this one you could have made a labernum bench and table which I have never even heard of let alone seen! Goldust!

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time of it. I know it sounds corny but the bad times come to an end just like the good times. I know that in the times I've had the worst stress is usually in the times I've had the least money. And it feels doubley unfair when you work your nuts off and you still have no money and then something breaks/or you break something or something gets nicked.... it's that last sraw that seems to push you to the edge. With some help from friends I've forced myself to write things down, make lists, prioritise. You can't do everything at the same time yet when you're under the most pressure you'll run around like a headless chicken doing loads and achieving nothing... at least I know I have done in the past. So now it's more about accepting I'm not going to get everything the way I want it or have the bank balance I want or equipment I want... it's a case of prioritising and working your way through that list. Looking at this thread it does echo what I've always thought about treework. For the equipment, training, insurance and all the rest of it we really do not get paid what we should. This means we work too hard for not enough and when things go wrong there is no margin for error. What we need is for Joe public to recognise a bonafide tree surgeon who is NPTC qualified and insured, ask for proof of those things so that then we can ask for the right money to do the job = less stress. At the moment how many people ask you for actual proof of qualifications and insurance? How many people care? I'd say with me it is 0.5% (talking more about the private market here). Money doesn't get rid of stress but lack of money certainly causes it!

The larger the chainsaw the better for milling timber. I was running 2x makita 9010 on a 56" double ended bar. When it was working it ran a treat but first one then the other went down with scored pistons (after 6 and 8 months respectively). This was running on Aspen2t so the mixture would not have caused it. They were nice saws to start even without the decompression button. In hindsight I should have taken a bit more care with them i.e. idling them every minute or so rather than just full revs until the plank was done. Having 2 saws going full tilt means they were probably revving too high to be healthy. Since then I've gone back to a single powerhead (MS880) with a 36" Cannon bar and granberg ripping chain (still not totally sold on the Cannon bars. Have owned around 8 now and hard to tell how much longer wearing they are compared to say Oregon etc...). Have changed the sprockets (on chainsaw and bar) for 3/8 and have found milling is certainly smoother and a little quicker. The teeth may be narrower on a 3/8 pitch chain but you have more of them than a .404 chain so it is not simply a case of narrower chain = faster milling speed. On the granberg chain I have found that if you take pains to sharpen it to 0 degrees on the clearing cutters (depth guage .030) and 20 degrees on the scoring cutters (depth guage .040) then the saw pulls you through the wood with minimum binding, maximum speed and smoothness. The more I mill with chainsaws the more I realise how the chain being sharp (whatever make of ripping chain) and bar not being worn can be the difference between a happy productive day and a miserable elbow aching day. Now I set the depth guages every time I'm sharpening ripping chain. Never used to as didn't want to waste any time but experience has taught me well... If I don't have time to get the chain right then I don't mill. You can get away with a dull chain, slightly worn bar when doing normal cross cutting... milling you can forget it! You may squeeze out a few planks but it will be 3x the work for you and your chainsaw.

It may be painful to do but if I am short of work then I spend more on advertising and marketing - make sure your boards go up after a visible job and that they look professional, call up the local gardeners and landscapers and introduce yourself. Say you're happy to come out and do estimates for any tree work they're not happy to tackle... There's loads of ways to generate more work if you put in a bit of time. A recent thing I've started doing is sending in quotes on the most expensive, thickest paper I can buy with a copy of my NPTC stuff and insurance. Even if I have quoted verbally on the day I'll send in a smart written quote so people have my details to hand (also I attach a card so they can then pass to a friend). I'd rather do this than drop prices - we're such an underated profession for what we do as it is. I don't know when/if this will ever change.... It would help if the public made a point of asking for copies of insurance and proof of training on every job. The most people ever do with me is ask 'Are you insured?' and I say 'Yes' and they say 'Ah good'. And they always assume you're qualified because it says so on your advert in the paper!

People ask if you're vat registered for all the reasons prev listed. I'm not vat registered because 90% of my customers are not vat registered and most of what I earn is for a service and not on top of a product. After you have your basic truck, chipper and chainsaws there's not much vat to claim back (for me there wouldn't be) And I don't want to get bigger and run 2 or more trucks etc. If you want to expand your business, employ more people and grow you may as well go vat registered. If you're always going to be a small company doing private work then why be 10% (real terms) more expensive than you are now and also have more paperwork to do.

That sounds like a cracking idea! The silky saws are exellent and I have a couple of their pole saws but the buttons have stopped engaging and they're getting a pain to slide in and out. How far does your window cleaning one go?

I know in the past if I drop my price then all I do is try to get the job done faster in order to turn a profit. I'm not sure how many injuries out there come about as a result of fatigue and rushing but I would imagine quite a few. If you're struggling that much for work then there's only a few alternatives. You can diversify and do more landscaping, gardening type jobs if they're about or you have to downsize and lay off one of your employees. It's not about being fair or right but it's what you have to do to survive.