Rob D

I've been speaking to the guy at BAG Supplies :: Packaging Suppliers covering the UK and those vented bags (and they'll soon be doing another version that are cheaper with strip type vents) have tipping loops at each corner so when you get to the customer you can tip the logs and keep the bag. The fully side vented bags look perfect for drying but I don't know how long they'd last before you tore the net side.... I'm going to give their new vented strip bags a go but they won't have any with tipping loops for 10 weeks or so. Bagging logs is a great way to dry and move them around (I store in a polytunnel) and really cuts down handling time. Sometimes I'll split them on a job straight into a bag. I have a small crane to swing them onto the truck then forklift out into poly tunnel at yard. They all sit stacked on pallets letting the air through. Works a ruddy treat and folks round here are currently murdering there nearest and dearest to get their hands on dry logs!

Ditto on the above. He was standing in the right place and got himself out of danger. We've all made the wrong cuts one time or another - the main thing is you have a strategy to get out the way when things go wrong. He'll hopefully have learnt from that. By the way that video 'James the Narcoleptic Tree Surgeon' is unreal !! It just doesn't get any better than that does it!

IMO if you are as green as grass and have never used a chipper before the course probably has good grounds to be done (in 1 day - no longer). I think a lot of the NPTC courses are exellent for this - giving you an introduction. If you have learnt on the job as such then the chipper course will just be a waste of time and money... simple as that!

Come across this many times and as you say it must surely be harded to stuff down into the top of the hedge than take away!

As soon as people mention walnut all I'm thinking of is what the wood will look like as you're slicing it.... pretty good I'd imagine. Took a lovely 2 footer down before I was into milling and never seen one since. And ditto Mark - light reductions are great if you have nothing better to do with your time. Leave it or give it a solid haircut!

If you get stuck give me an e-mail on [email protected] I'm down in Lymington and if you're within 30 miles I can organise to get a grab in to pick up to 13 tonnes a load. Must be accessible to a large vehicle. This wouldn't earn you anything.... but it wouldn't cost you anything either!

I remember those 'good' ole days stamping the brash down, cutting it up, stamping it down, cutting it up and so on.... Then the unload from a non tipping trailer... I don't miss those days! Speaking of goats they are actually an exellent way to get rid of general waste. My brother and his mate in Cornwall used to tip for a fiver and this guys goats used to eat the lot! - no rhode or yew allowed. I digress from the thread. Just to add to the recent comments I have to say I tend to charge the same be it private or commercial or whoever. The only time my rate comes down if there is prime timber to mill. But then most of my work is private. It would probably be a different story if most was commercial.

The 2 lads probably got £20 each (not bad on top of your giro!) and matey felt good putting £100 in his pocket.... (on top of his sickness benefit!) Ridiculus but they're out there. Why does joe public employ them?

I know it depends a lot on what gear you have, who works for you, how fast you work etc. etc. but in the past I've found myself working 12 hour days 6 and a half days a week not including the paperwork side - it seemed like I had to to get on and earn the money for new gear. These days when someone takes a step backwards and struggles for breath after I give a quote I just say 'that is what the job is worth to me' and walk away. Some of these still come back to go ahead with the work. I like to know roundabouts what the competition is charging purely out of curiosity/interest - it doesn't affect my pricing. IMO we should get paid a lot more than we do - if you think about it if you looked at £60 to £70 per hour for 2 trained blokes, a truck, chipper, insurance (taking a rough/general rule of thumb from previous posts just to try and put a price on it!) then compare that to other skilled trades such as plumber, electrician, brickie, carpenter etc who e.g charging say £40 to £50 an hour for just 1 person working out of a small van (again just as a rule of thumb!).... .... it just seems that our trade seems to be selling itself short (again IMO as there are obviously people out there quite happy with what they earn).

I think luck and timing has a lot to do with it... Also a lot depends on who is new starting up in the area and whether an old hand has hung up his saw. I wouldn't like to be in business within a 20 mile radius of Sparsholt college

Thanks gents that's some great feedback here. There's quite a lot of variation depending on what part of the market your in, whether private or commercial, whether you employ a team or it's you and a groundie etc, and what equipment you have. Most people including myself prob give a fixed quote but calculate the quote by how many days/people/equipment would be involved.

Cheers for the feedback guys. I Know it's difficult to put exact figures but a rough guide is good. Keep it coming - don't be shy! How about you Treeline - I'm not looking for popularity just a few ideas on what other people out there are charging. We all complain we don't get paid enough so how much are you getting paid? If I wanted loads of replies I would have started a thread 'what do you think is best Stihl or Husqvarna?' But my main gripe with this industry is we get paid bugger all for a skilled and dangerous job. So instead of just moaning about it I'm trying to do something about it.

Just doing some research for an article for EssentialArb and want to find out how much people are charging out there for a days work. If you want a mention in the mag with the info you've given then please also put in that I have permission to use it. It seems to me as a profession we work bloody hard mainly just for the opportunity to buy the next bit of kit. But how much is the going rate? It's not a competition but if you could give a brief description and then price. Also how much are you paying in insurance and what part of the country you are from. Any additional info like how much you pay your employees. E.g For a 2 man team with truck and chipper I look for at least £400-00 per day. For a 3 man team with truck and chipper £500-00. Includes getting rid of all waste. Hire of MEWP or additional equipment is on top of this. Skilled climber if sub contracted in £120 to £140 per day, unskilled groundie £7.50 per hour. Insurance for me costs £2600-00 which includes 3rd party liability, damage/theft of tools and employers liability.

If you enjoy what you're doing I'd carry on with just you and a groundie (who can climb/aerial rescue) and try selling your waste products. Firewood is a winner now and unless you are in an area where everyone cuts their own/very rural it makes you good money. Almost a third of my income now comes from firewood. And this is hand splitting - but the trick is to split it staright after ringing it - dries faster and splits easier. You can try planking your better timber with a chainsaw mill - make basic furniture and features. This does not take skill (I can do it) and the amount of planks of a single tree means you can make umpteen table and bench sets. Then chipping mulch is a good one if you can find a market. I'm selling a 1.25 tonne (maybe just over) truckload for £70-00, half that £40 (these are composted chippings) or fresh from a job £30-00 a truckload. But these things are all longer term, need more patience and do not give the instant £ but are great earners if you persist. And they are all linked with what you're doing and you don't need to employ anyone else. I have found if you keep speaking to all those around you be it customers, other trades friends and family people start coming to you looking for logs/chippings/furniture.

Great to watch but didn't look that safe! The speed they were taking the slack in on the main rope you would not want to get it caught round a boot or your saw as it went up! Wonder what happens if they try and lift a section through the trees and it gets stuck? I suppose there is a quick release option at the helicopter end.

Just for the record I have full employers liability - indeed I am insured up to the hilt! Of course you need to have liability for your sub contractors. You need to have proper emergency procedures in place and you need to discuss risk at each job. I make an effort to work safely and for the people I work with to work safely but I don't feel on many jobs that a written risk assessment reduces risk or makes me or the people I work with any safer - so I don't do one. Secondly its not that I can't be arsed to do the paperwork - I do written risk assessments on more unusual, dangerous work or jobs next to roads etc where risks are greater but this is a rarity. But I do not do the paperwork just for the sake of ticking boxes on umpteen forms so I have a backup for a later court date. If I saw a point to the paperwork then I would do it i.e. it's not laziness or lack of time. I've been in a few tribunals albeit in the health world many years ago and many associated issues can be transfered over to the arb world. Yes you should have a hard copy of a risk assessment but if you can demonstrate in court the ways you mitigated risk and can back this up with evidence of controls carried out on the day then you can still prove that you have assessed risk. If you employ any number of people in the conventional way you really have no choice but to follow convention and do the paperwork. In a practical way and getting back to the main thread what I am suggesting is at least make the risk assessment as concise as possible with a box at the bottom to cover any unusual elements. To a certain extent I'm playing devil's advocate here - but I am standing up to be counted rather than a great many who complain endlessly about how meaningless a lot of health and safety is but do and say nothing against it.

But what you're saying is that you're doing the risk assessment to make sure the insurance company pay out - not to mitigate risk! I spent a long long long time speaking to Bryant and Kesek about how my insurance works and when and how it will pay out. In short it will pay out if I am grossly negligent and cause damage to persons or property through my own wrong doing/foolishness. However if there is an accident and I have taken all due precaution to avoid it then there is a chance the insurance won't pay out. It's an accident and so there is a chance the customer would have to claim on their own insurance. I am not prepared to fill out forms for the sake of it. In court if it comes to it I will stand up and say what precautions were taken and how I assessed and acted on risk. But I have a very small operation with no employees (I use people only on a sub contracting basis). With a larger company you have no choice but to follow all the procedures. And that is why I will never be a large company!!

Being honest here are people doing risk assessments for say pruning an apple tree? Or maybe small reduction on oak in a back garden? Or doing risk assessments at all? I started doing them 2 years ago when I had a student, did 3 or 4 then wondered why I was bothering. You only need them if something goes wrong to prove you've assessed the risk and taken the correct precautions. I used to work in the health service and spent my life filling in forms. So out in the open here I don't do a written risk assessment unless working where you need to show one or the job is particularly involved or complex. However I assess risk and act accordingly at every job I do - I just don't write it down. Also I don't know anyone else doing tree work near me that has a lovely tidy book of filled in risk assessments and method statements. The main reason I will write a risk assessment is so that people know what to do when something does go wrong i.e. where is first aid kit? do you have a mobile signal? nearest hospital, address where we're working for ambulance etc. If I'm working by a road then signs will be put out and if needed traffic lights. If working over a public footpath then groundsmen need flourescent jackets and a signal system to say the path is clear. Dangerous tree - get a MEWP. But do we have to write all this down every time? It's a meaningless waste of ink to run down a form sticking in a long line of ticks to show we've considered that or considered this. Do we have to write 'road' = high severity, likelihood of incident high, therefore controls to reduce risk = signs out, high vis jackets on, traffic control in place. It's obvious we need to do this working by a road. But in the real world we have to have something. But if we do have to have something can we not cut through all the bulls*@t and fit it onto a single A4 page! Not saying mine below is any good - just trying to bring something constructive to the party! Risk Assess.doc This below is the sort of thing I think is just a waste of time and paper. Risk Assess2.doc

Sorry - my bags are 0.8 m3 ! Measure 90cm by 90cm by 90cm but with them bulging and well filled I reckon 0.8m3 of logs is what you get (not 0.9m3!)

Sounds like you have the right attitude going on. If you're prepared to do what's needed in the short term i.e. splitting logs etc then you have a good chance. Local papers I find are the best way to advertise for private work. Also I know you probably just want to do tree surgery but if you have a mower and a strimmer grass cutting at this time of year is a good one and you should be able to earn pretty good money from it (price by job/lawn and not by hour - there's incentive then for working hard). When I started I put 2 ads in the local paper. One was a boxed ad with all the trimmings for tree surgery etc. The other was a small lineage ad that read something like 'local professional person available for mowing lawns. Good rates and reliable service'. Always got a good result.Then as time goes on you can drop the jobs you don't like.

I get my bags from these people at Builders Bags: UK suppliers of builders bags and sacks Free delivery and they also do these smaller green bags for less than a quid each. I measured them at 0.9 m height, width and length which gives you 0.729 m3 but I think well filled with sides bulging they'll have 0.80 m3. I tell people the bags are almost a cubic meter. Selling these at £60 hardwood, £50 mixed, £45 softwood only. As for trading standards there are loads of people around me selling wet wood for £40 a load.... how come they don't pick these people up?

I've been with Bryant and Kesek for 7 years and just found that the service is good. If I want to know something then I call and they tell me. If I want to add something I call and they add it on. I never trust anyone who price matches. Give me your best price first. Just to get back to the initial post I've built up a big stock of dry firewood this year and I'm almost thinking what happens if someone decides they want to see a big bonfire? Can you insure the wood itself? And does anyone else insure their wood? It's stored in polytunnels and I wouldn't like to think what would happen if someone lit one end!!

I got a cheap moisture meter off ebay but I'm not all that sure how good it is. After pulling dry wood out of a bag it seems to come back different readings. Have you bought this one and is it any good? Or does anyone out there know of a good moisture meter below £100 that is accurate without having to really force it into the wood?

I'm getting fully geared up for logs this year. Last year I sold out in 6 weeks and during that time was getting a average 10 answerphone messages a day for logs. Sold around 140 loads/bags. This year I'm aiming for 300 loads/bags. I tend to do the big builders type dumpy bay (0.9 cubic metre) hardwood £60, mixed £50 and softwood only £45. For a loose 1.2 cubice metre hardwood load is £80 and mixed £70. Softwood as long as it is dry will burn fine and produce lots of heat. Athough of course you may get a bit of sparking and it won't last as long. Most of my customers seem to have been educated with 'hardwood good' 'softwood bad' but I think with these modern log burners dry softwood is the best thing to get the bed of the fire going. The key is to split all your logs as soon as possible - on site even. Green wood is so much easier to split. I then bag them and then lift into a polytunnel where the temperature can get up to 40 degrees C. There are so many people near me selling loads for £40 that were wet but it just makes my logs look even better. All those people who have spent £2000 + on a log burner are not going to leave it just sitting there whether it's cold or not. It used to be firewood was something you did if you had a bit of spare time but now you can make good money with it. I suppose what puts a lot of people off is that you have to split and store the wood months before you get any income but I'd say if you're a tree surgeon bringing wood back to a yard you're mad not to start setting up selling wood in a small way.