ArbjobsNick

Overseas climbers are welcome to climb but must let us know that they have no NPTC qualifications we can then ensure our trainer judges supervise the climb to ensure climber safety. If equipment isn't CE rated we have spare equipment available to borrow that will meet our standards and will be covered by our insurers if an incedent were to occur. If we start bending the rules for a few where to we stop? When we have a climber turn up from some dark distant continent with some hemp rope and a bit of board to sit on and a coconut helmet do we let him climb? This form of climbing may be perfectly accepted in his country. We have industry standards here in the UK along with AFAG401 and the Guide to good climbing pratice to follow. It is here in the UK we are running the 3ATC events. AA events need to comply and promote safe practice and the best of UK standards.

Thanks Penfold guess I should have done maybe if he shows up a few times this year we might get some more recognition.

At the Student events we expect College instructors to be supervising and coaching their climbers. There are only two events at the Student Comps Team or Premier. Premier climbers will climb as individuals pitch climbing or throw lineing in to the canopy then carrying out the same climb as the team event. So yes as a student under supervision you would be welcome to join in and represent your college. Due to time and space availabel we are limiting places to two teams and two premier climbers per College. I hope you can get a place. Failing that come and enter one of the OPEN events but let us know you are not yet qualified so we can ensure your safety. Cheers Nick

Difficult one SRT is still in its infancy and has yet to be seen as acceptable within the wider industry. I am interested to see if we can have some climbers working on it this year but will have to discuss the whole matter with the Arb Association and our pannel of Judges and safety officers as well as the insurers. So not just down to me I am afraid, but thanks for the thumbs up on the radio interview.

Hi Peter Hand splices will need ot be declaired to the judges who will decide if they meet an appropriate standard in line with best practice guidelines which say they should be produced by a competent person. How do you decide who is competent if its not been properly tested? Please let me know.

CE confirms a product meets industry requirements climbing line is category three PPE and as such is independantly assessed annually that it continues to meet this standard. No Rupe sorry but Poison Ivy is not CE rated. Yale changed the core construction of the rope (a new rope) to produce Poison Hyve which has a yellow tracer and has now passed CE approved. This rope CE rope is also re branded as Blue Tongue in the UK.

Thanks for the support guys hope I did my bit to raise the profile of all the climbing competitons UK and International.

Rupes we also ask that kit used is CE certified been looking at your rope in the head cam video ; )

Please do Craig I sure you will be able to find fault somewhere.

Student events Sponsored by Gustharts 20th 21st April Capel Manor College Celebration of Trees Enfield 24th 25th May National Trusts Craigside Estate Northumbria OPEN Events in Northumbria May Sponsored by Gustharts Gloucestershire June Sponsored By Arbjobs.com Kent July Sponsored by Fr Jones and Son Warwick September Sponsor to be announced More information on the website www.3ATC.com

Its Nick Pott paul if its Pott's you will be hearing me in sterio Blimey I am nervous.

I used one of the prototypes at the AA Arb fair last year to communicate with a climber deadwooding a big tree on the site. With all the background noise there is no way we would have been able to communicate normally and I would have lost my voice by the end of the day. The PTT worked really great. The climber dropped the cable down the back of his T Shirt out of the way and the radio was storred in his leg pocket. It takes a bit of getting used to using there is a small delay in connection before you can start talking and you need to keep your finger on the button until you finish what you are saying. They are now also in left and right handed versions groundies might be better with a right handed one so they can still maintain the balance whilst holding a top handled saw, climbers might want a left handed version as the balance is on the trigger handle on a top handled saw. Of course you wouldn't still be using the saw one handed.

Hi Rupes the 3ATC is now an AA event although I instigated the event five years ago the AA have now fully adopted it and so we need to be promoting best practice including qualifications and LOLER. If someone hasn't passed CS38 they can compete but must be under the supervision on a training provider on the day we usually have several on site helping but they need to be clear about this when they enter. Climbers are also asked to sign a waiver form and state that their equipment is under current LOLER inspection. This removed the onus from our judges and places it firmly back on the shoulders of the climber. We will of course carry out a kit inspection and will not let anything pass that is not up to standard or clearly marked with date of manufacture a relevant CE certification where applicable and a rating. Other events may be happy to bend the rules to allow in all sorts of nefarious international equipment to be used but reading our policy documents properly we have found this negates any possible insurance claim so leaves the organisers of these event personally liable for prosecution if an accident were to happen. None of our volunteer staff want to lose their houses for the sake of cutting a few corners regarding safety or equipment. Same said of the real world a recent case in London some tree lads dropped a limb on a car during a dismantle went to claim, nobody had a CS41 therefore no insurance, I just hope it wasn't a Bently!

Good question, for the open events climbers would need to have passsed NPTC CS38 we have plenty of staff attending who can carry out a rescue should it be nessesary but thankfully we have not had one in the last five years. At the Student events we understand Students may not have passed CS38 yet so they must be under the supervision of their tutor during the event again we have a safety technition in the tree with them in case we need to carry out a rescue at any point. The events are not meant to be anything bizzare, just climbing to targets and simple tasks in the tree as you would at work each week. Entry is only £10 per person and there are some great prizes to be had at all the events.

We have a few events running this year for those who want to get a start in competition climbing. 3ATC CCC College Climbing Competition for students at College Southern at Capel Manors Celebration fo Trees Northern at Cragside Northumbria 3ATC OPEN Events: Open to any qualified climber Northern OPEN at Cragside Northumbria UK OPEN AA Trade Fair Cirencester South East OPEN FR Jones and Son Arb Fest KENT For entry forms and more information please go to Arboricultural Association Arborist Tree Challenge Good luck look forward to seeing you there. Nick

Glad you enjoyed last years 3ATC at Justins show lots more prizes to be won in this years 3ATC climbing comps so please book in early. 3ATC CCC College Climbing Competition for students at College Southern at Capel Manors Celebration fo Trees Northern at Cragside Northumbria 3ATC OPEN Events: Open to any qualified climber Northern OPEN at Cragside Northumbria UK OPEN AA Trade Fair Cirencester South East OPEN FR Jones and Son Arb Fest KENT For entry forms and more information please go to Arboricultural Association Arborist Tree Challenge Good luck look hope to see you there. Nick

Hi Guys Apparently I am the one who runs the AA Arborist Tree Challenge. In fact I cannot take all the credit I have the help of a great group of voulenteers who help massively without them these events wouldn't happen and I am eternally greatful for all their help each year. Anyway we have a few events rinnign this year for those who want to get a start in competition climbing. 3ATC CCC College Climbing Competition for students at College Southern at Capel Manors Celebration fo Trees Northern at Cragside Northumbria 3ATC OPEN Events: Open to any qualified climber Northern OPEN at Cragside Northumbria UK OPEN AA Trade Fair Cirencester South East OPEN FR Jones and Son Arb Fest KENT For entry forms and more information please go to Arboricultural Association Arborist Tree Challenge Good luck look forward to seeing you there. Nick

I only realised recently having read some blurb on the HSE website that Farmers and Woodland owners are exempt from any chainsaw tickets !!! I wonder who has the most accidents with chainsaws?? Had to talk down one of my local farmers recently when I caught him working out of his tractor bucket at full tilt in the air trying to cut of some large branches with his big old farm Stihl saw. He's nearly 70! I ended up doing the job for him FOC.

Guys can I be a bit pedantic here what you are talking about is a Prusik hitch not a Prusik Knot the Prusik Loop is tied with a double Fishermans Knot then formed on to the climbing rope as a movable Hitch. I know I am being a bit nobby about this but its one of my pet hates, sorry also check our Prusik on Wikipedia it appears many of us call it the wrong name too Wiki quote: A Prusik ( /ˈprʌsɪk/) is a friction hitch or knot used to put a loop of cord around a rope, applied in climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, caving, rope rescue, and by arborists. The term Prusik is a name for both the loops of cord and the hitch, and the verb is "to prusik". More casually, the term is used for any friction hitch or device that can grab a rope. The word is often misspelled as Prussik, Prussick or Prussic, as it is a homonym with the term prussic acid. The Prusik hitch is named for its alleged inventor, Austrian mountaineer Dr. Karl Prusik. It was shown in a 1931 Austrian mountaineering manual for rope ascending. It was used on several mountaineering routes of the era to ascend the final summit peak, where a rope could be thrown over the top and anchored so that climbers could attain the summit by prusiking up the other side of the rope.

Small print doesn't just relate to your car. Check your tree work Public liability policies for cover if you don't have CS41 I heard about some lads in London who had a bit of an accident with a tree and a parked car (the car lost) Ok they thinks we are covered ermmm Nope no CS 41 No cover. Same can happen with No LOLER and Ive seen policies that exclude any tree work within 5 meters of a house and no more than 3 meters from the ground. You really do have to read and digest what you are paying for. Oh one last one that caught me "Interuption of business cover" I'd never heard of it till I got all my kit nicked and had to hire a chipper etc whilst the insurance took three months to settle my losses as I didn't have interuption of business cover I had to pay for the lot.

HI Nod An argument is described as an attempt to persuade someone else of something, by giving reasons or evidence for accepting a particular conclusion. We don’t have to agree but we don’t have to fall out over it either. With all your experience I’m pretty sure you are aware of the industries standard guideline to work on 10:1 safety factor ratios for rigging textiles. I have tried to give someone on here good advice based on what we both know is considered best practice. I can only draw my own conclusions as to why you would wish to debate best practice that has kept many arborist safe. When crossing the road Best practice was taught as “Stop look and listen” of course nobody has to do this it’s your personal choice and you live with the consequences. In asking my friends and peers they all seem to agree that within our industry we have adopted certain safety factors to build in a safety margin / factor when using equipment. Cycles to failure also played a part in defining arboricultural safety factors the thinking being that despite a manufacturers safety factor (See Yale 5:1) so as well as a built in safety margin if as an industry we adopt a higher Safety Factor the more use (Cycles) we will get out of a rope before it fails examples of this are also quoted in the publications I have already recommended for reading. Again nobody is forced anyone to follow industry best practice as you say it isn’t written in stone so if a rigger wants to break kit by overloading it that is of course their choice. Worst case scenario they kill someone in the process or damage property through their actions all they have to do is justify why they chose to ignore best practice. So I guess I am comfortable to quote 10:1 – 5:1 or 7:1 ratios for respective equipment, I may not be right in your opinion but I can live with that. Not everyone may wish to conform to what many of us consider industry best practice but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad position to start from until someone gains a better understanding of the physics involved in rigging and how the equipment reacts to different forces. Nick

Hi Nod, I don’t think I am qualified or experienced enough to argue the semantics of rigging factors on the forum. If anyone is interested futher reading on this very specialist subject would be required and I would recommend the following: International Society of Arboricultures book “Arborist Equipment” 2nd Edition Written by Donald Blair available from the I.S.A. Safety factors, cycles to failure are covered in chapter five “Arborist rope”. In short recommending the application of 10:1 or even 20:1 be adopted for rigging purposes. References for this section of the book include manufacturers and organisations including Sampson Ocean Systems, American National Standards Institute, The Cordage Institute, New England Ropes and Yale Cordage. The 2008 HSE/Forestry Commission’s paper RR668 free to download on HSE website. “Evaluation of current rigging and dismantling practices used in Arboriculture” Also covers this subject and reference Mr Blairs work on page 174 they also suggest that with our ropes exposed to environmental influences, mechanical distortion, strength loss due to wear and other influences and that larger safety factors must be considered and refer to Blair (1999) recommendation to double the 5:1 design factor so that would take it to 10:1. The Tree Care Industry Association’s Best Practices for Rigging in Arboriculture 2011 available from TCIA or leading UK Arb retailers. Cover and recommend 10:1 safety factors in relation to rigging ropes on Page 33 under the chapter titled “Rigging System Components” I guess the information and recomendation on "safe practice" is out there you just need to know where to find it.

Hi Dave, Glad the info helped if you need any more technical information at any time regarding Yale ropes climbing or rigging there is a link to Jamie Goddards email on the Yale website he is their international representative and knows shed loads about their products. Happy rigging. Nick

Sorry if I have misunderstood your point Peter I didn't think it sounded a Peter style comment that I would expect from you. I based my comment on what I understood Don Blair recommended for rigging rope based on his research and book. I must admit not having read the book myself so may be quoting incorrectly but loading a rope to 10% of its breaking strain has got to be better for the safety of all involved and longevity of the rope, hasn't it? I know Dons book may be slighty aged now but I was under the impression it was still in line with currect UK safety guidance. What do you work your rigging on Nod ? Maybe I am out of touch, would be interested to hear what you would recommend.

Bit of a stupid quote Peter. Portland Braid is pretty much the same as the old and well trusted Yale Cordage Double Estleron. Portland braid hasn't got the same Maxi Jacket coating that helps reduce wear and abraision so Portland isn't rated quite as high on strength 7384KG Tensile Strength against Double Estleron 19mm at 8492KG T/S but it is also a lot less money if your loading your ropes to the 10 % rate in line with good practice it should last you just fine. Hope this is a bit more informative and less opinionated Dave.