Lombardy Fell Incident

[tree-fancier123]

wrote a rambling post about the driver not accelerating hard to keep up with the tree falling, on looking back this aspect was discussed already in some detail in the 34 page thread

Edited December 9, 2017 by tree-fancier123

[beechwood]

 
Neil I would have less of a problem with fines like that if the guys were sent out to execute the works in that particular way. In the companies defense I cannot believe for one moment that Bartlett`s sent those guys out there in an open public space next to a busy junction to pull that tree over with a rope tied to the back of a truck . Even if they were sent out to do it  the  onus of responsibility should fall on the operatives because they could of quite easily refused to do it . This one has gone wrong and even if the guys did get the sack for this they will probably find employment within the hour leaving the whole shitfest for the company to deal with, from where I am sat this was probably meant to be a dismantle that the  guys took upon themselves to fell.
 
Bob

Bob

I take your point.
It can feel like the HSE just chase the employer without holding the employees to account but we do have a responsibility as employers.
But I fear you are probably partially right and they have left Bartlett’s to pick up the pieces for their cock up.

However I’m sure if Bartlett’s had sent the team out with instructions on how to set up the site, to section fell the tree and with staff qualified to do the work, that then they wouldn’t have been fined so heavily if at all.

Obviously I’m speculating based on the brief HSE description because I haven’t read the court transcript, so I could be wrong.

What I do know is that over the past few years I’ve had guys approaching me for work who are under qualified for what they claim to be able to do.
When I say they need more qualifications they respond saying they don’t need them to work for x, y and z.
I regularly hear x, y and z are cheaper than you and I think of course they are as they are cutting corners!

My hope is that this kind of prosecution will lead to more companies realising if they need to employ fully qualified staff and have good work procedures in place or they are risking a £25k fine if things go wrong.
Surely this will promote higher standards, help weed out the idiots and is in the long term better for the whole industry.

Of course it might just be a unachievable pipe dream but I live in hope.

Regards Neil

[carlos]

in  my mind the only mistake that was made was to undertake a fell on that tree, all the legal stuff about training, supervision, certification etc is just how the prosecution system works.

id say most days and jobs there is something not being done by the book no matter how small its only when the poo hits the fan does come to light.

[WesD]

How many on here would have felled it?

 

The AA’s response will be interesting, they are in a hard place now and their outcome will set a moral compass for them going forwards with their accreditation and how seriously the take themselves. 

 

Do they carry on as is taking their money with the spin they have been punished enough? What message would that send and would it devalue their accreditation?

 

Do they put them in some sort of special measures increase visits etc and work with them?

 

Do they suspend their accreditation for a time period to let them regather and recover before re assessing them to regain accreditation after a time out so to speak?

 

AA may have other options ideas but their take and reaction on this will speak some volumes to the industry and could potentially shape their future for better or worse.

 

The AA I would say are now under a metaphorical spotlight and in a difficult spot. 

[skyhuck]

10 minutes ago, carlos said:

in  my mind the only mistake that was made was to undertake a fell on that tree, all the legal stuff about training, supervision, certification etc is just how the prosecution system works.

id say most days and jobs there is something not being done by the book no matter how small its only when the poo hits the fan does come to light.

So you think no tree should be felled, unless there is nothing within falling distance in all directions?

 

 

[WesD]

5 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

So you think no tree should be felled, unless there is nothing within falling distance in all directions?

 

 

He says undertake a fell on that tree, I took that as he wouldn’t fell Lombardy Pops.

 

Would you have felled it?

[skyhuck]

1 minute ago, WesD said:

He says undertake a fell on that tree, I took that as he wouldn’t fell Lombardy Pops.

 

Would you have felled it?

Without seeing it in the flesh I can't say, but I've felled 100's of Lombardys over the years, some in pretty tight spots.

[WesD]

14 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

Without seeing it in the flesh I can't say, but I've felled 100's of Lombardys over the years, some in pretty tight spots.

Suppose that’s the key ingredient, seeing it in the flesh. What’s bugging me about it is someone made the effort to attach the rope high up why not attach it a bit higher and fell it in 3 or 4 sections. Your already there so to speak get a saw sent up and crack on. 

[ArbMish]

1 hour ago, beechwood said:

My hope is that this kind of prosecution will lead to more companies realising if they need to employ fully qualified staff and have good work procedures in place or they are risking a £25k fine if things go wrong.
Surely this will promote higher standards, help weed out the idiots and is in the long term better for the whole industry.

Of course it might just be a unachievable pipe dream but I live in hope.

 

 

 

After finally managing to read the entirety of this thread I thought I'd add a little somthing.

 

I agree with beechwood, there seems to be a lack of training after getting tickets within our industry. I can only talk from my own experience of course but here goes..

 

I'm only in my 3rd year of Arb' specific work and bar college/uni holidays I've always been part time. I've never lied about how much experience I have as I wanted to learn and I didn't see the point in lying about it...you're just gonna get caught out and your employer isn't gonna be too happy with you. Also I always made it clear I was studying horti/arb at college and only working part time...

 

I started with a company that had employed staff of 5/6 with myself added on top of that so a fairly big team (in my experience anyway). The boss wasn't on most jobs (he was transitioning away from doing the heavy work for health reasons I think) but there was a gaffer. I was given pretty minimal 'training' - how to mix fuel, how to use their model of chipper etc. After that, pretty much nothing. Even at times when there would have been 'time' to give such training. For example, I struggled cross cutting larger timber because I had never done it. Sometimes we ended up on yard days because of weather/cancellations whatever where there was the time for someone to show me but it never happened. I just got told to get on with it.

 

I've since left this company and subbed with a few others...I can now look back and say I think part of the reason for lack of training on the job was: the boss not pushing it to happen, time to get jobs done, the guys I was working with not having an awful lot of training either and also all of them not taking into account I was a part time member of staff. There's only so much experience you can gain part time, especially with people who are unwilling to offer advice/training. I now look back and see that I was often expected to know a lot of things without being shown/told etc. I think this company may have been quite lucky with me as I'm naturally very cautious (perhaps too much sometimes), I also tend to keep an eye on everyone I'm working with and I'm studying arb so had a fair amount of knowledge coming in from outside sources..if it had been someone else with a cocky attitude and a less cautious nature then things may have gone south. Toward the end I often found it was me training new staff members on use of the chipper and showing them the hand signals we used...not the gaffer or someone else on the team. 

 

I think there needs to be a real push within the industry for training after tickets. As I said I've since worked for a few other companies - I was very choosy who I worked for after leaving the aforementioned company, if they didn't sound like I'd get the training/advice I needed I didn't bother. - I now work with people who recognise I know what I'm doing (to a certain extend) and I have knowledge gained at college but they don't expect miracles. They give me a chance to learn new things whenever possible and they don't expect me to know everything. Likewise they offer plenty of tips and advice and don't make me feel stupid if I don't know something. 

 

Not being made to feel stupid I think is hugely important because if you're made to feel stupid at work you're going to ask less questions and do things just by assumption..which I'd say in our industry is pretty dangerous. I overheard a couple of my friends at college talking about a 16 year old kid they'd had in for his first day on the job. They were on about how hard they worked him and how he wasn't very strong. I just thought: ffs this is a 16 year old, what 16 year old is really strong? Unless they're some kind of bodybuilder?! Now that kid may end up feeling stupid and not ask questions where he should..

 

I also agree with whoever said working in the forest is good for those in Arb I had the opportunity to go into the forest just yesterday and that was some experience! Again with a decent guy who knows the experience would be good for me. He felled the big spruces and I snedded them. We don't deal with an awful lot of big trees in Arb so this was a big learning curve but damn it was a good one! Equally it was great to have someone there to give advice and ask questions of.

 

What I'm saying is I hope that this incident will push the industry to start taking training after tickets more seriously and also knock some of the bravado out - especially when it comes to dealing with those new to the industry.

 

Just my thoughts..

[carlos]

43 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

So you think no tree should be felled, unless there is nothing within falling distance in all directions?

 

 

er no! from what i remember in the video the top of that tree was all over the place in the wind and i think that the wind was side on to the direction of the fell thus rendering the pull line useless against the wind. so with the species, wind and targets i think a fell was a risky option imo ( im no master feller btw)

carl