Farmers take milk off shelves at large supermarkets Re price of milk

[Richard 1234]

Don't go down that, people not like seeing other people doing well route! It boils my piss!

 

 

 

Why should one industry still get outdated subsides, yet others are left to rot?

 

 

That's exactly my point why do you care how much someone else has?

As for these others that are left to rot which ones? Coal? Ships? I don't make the rules. Why shouldn't you reap the reward for taking huge risks?

[matelot]

Point I'm making is if the farmers did not have the subsides the cost of food would shoot up miles.

!!!

 

As previously said we pay taxes so farmers can get their subsidies... Perhaps if people paid the 'real' price of food they wouldn't waste so much....

 

I get the train through Scotland a lot, I see a lot of strawberry farms with dozens of people working there. It's fairly certain that they will be East european workers getting a fortune in benefits etc.

 

I honestly think if we import more food it would be cheaper for us as we wouldn't have to pay the farmers subsidies and pay to subsidise all the farmers Imported labour.

 

EU subsidies also mess up African farmers as they can't compete against food dumped from Europe.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

I see that but how do you propose giving the backing to the small farmers(sub 500 acres) they would simply go out of business without them.

The big landowners may simply give up and let the countryside go to ruin as they will not want to farm(produce) without the subsidies.

And what about the general public do you think they want to pay the true price of the food they eat? I for 1 don't think they would like to pay full price.

To look at it another way if the price of food was to double(or more) how would the poorest in the country cope?

 

This will be my last post in the thread because it's just going round in circles.

 

Not wishing to cause offence, but it seems to me that trying to take a macro view of the problem with people that have micro self-interest is never going to work - like asking a benefit claimant if they're happy with a cap on benefits at 20-23k. Er, no! Ask a working taxpayer if they're happy with a benefit cap at 20-23k - er, that much?

 

To address your points above in reverse order....

 

Agricultural subsidy is NOT a price subsidy for the product. See para 5 of the attachment:

 

EUR-Lex - 32011R1368 - EN - EUR-Lex

 

It is an area related support decoupled from production. So the subsidy is payable based upon the area of land owned (regardless of what it's used for.) Therein lies the problem - billions are being paid to landowners (who may, or may not, be the farmer) that is of great benefit to large land owners but may or may not be of any benefit to smaller or tenant farmers if it's not passed on by the landowner to the farmer (). That's the problem, we have a subsidy that doesn't always reach the grass roots that it's meant to support. This notion that farm subsidy is a product price subsidy is out-dated and incorrect. Subsidies (in general) are made to encourage, implement or accelerate behavioural change in line with government policy. As such, there are compliance criteria attached to receipt of the subsidy, for example, environmental / biodiversity enhancement. I've had more than enough arguments (good natured but animated) with good friends in farming that seem to think it's "so unfair" that they have to jump through so many hoops to get the subsidy. Nobody says any farmer has to claim the subsidy, if they don't like the hoops, don't jump through them but don't expect the free cash handout.

 

That kind of brings us onto your second point - "let the countryside go to ruin as they will not want to farm"

 

Again, no good trying to discuss what the countryside should look like with someone that makes their living from it - it's not like they are going to have an objective, altruistic motivation really is it? How would you define ruin?

 

Great swathes of chemically controlled, GM, sterile, mono crops as far as the eye can see....

 

Hedgerows smashed out and trees felled to allow access for bigger machinery....

 

Fields full of cows that have been intensively bred for over production of milk.....

 

Hills and moors grubbed out to improve grazing

 

Or is that my perception of "ruined?"

 

Getting the subsidy to smaller farmers is exactly what should be happening. The man/woman on the tools, the one getting up early and finishing late doing the job 7 days a week. Look at the table of subsidies in the attachment:

 

United Kingdom | FarmSubsidy.org

 

then try and tell me dairy farming (or any form of agriculture) needs MORE public money to subsidise it and I'll fall off my chair in despair.

 

I totally agree, it's hard graft and I totally agree we need UK producers, but instead of whining about how tough it is in farming, the NFU should be doing what it's meant to and support the workers not the V big landowners at the expense of the workers.

[Richard 1234]

This will be my last post in the thread because it's just going round in circles.

 

 

 

Not wishing to cause offence, but it seems to me that trying to take a macro view of the problem with people that have micro self-interest is never going to work - like asking a benefit claimant if they're happy with a cap on benefits at 20-23k. Er, no! Ask a working taxpayer if they're happy with a benefit cap at 20-23k - er, that much?

 

 

 

To address your points above in reverse order....

 

 

 

Agricultural subsidy is NOT a price subsidy for the product. See para 5 of the attachment:

 

 

 

EUR-Lex - 32011R1368 - EN - EUR-Lex

 

 

 

It is an area related support decoupled from production. So the subsidy is payable based upon the area of land owned (regardless of what it's used for.) Therein lies the problem - billions are being paid to landowners (who may, or may not, be the farmer) that is of great benefit to large land owners but may or may not be of any benefit to smaller or tenant farmers if it's not passed on by the landowner to the farmer (). That's the problem, we have a subsidy that doesn't always reach the grass roots that it's meant to support. This notion that farm subsidy is a product price subsidy is out-dated and incorrect. Subsidies (in general) are made to encourage, implement or accelerate behavioural change in line with government policy. As such, there are compliance criteria attached to receipt of the subsidy, for example, environmental / biodiversity enhancement. I've had more than enough arguments (good natured but animated) with good friends in farming that seem to think it's "so unfair" that they have to jump through so many hoops to get the subsidy. Nobody says any farmer has to claim the subsidy, if they don't like the hoops, don't jump through them but don't expect the free cash handout.

 

 

 

That kind of brings us onto your second point - "let the countryside go to ruin as they will not want to farm"

 

 

 

Again, no good trying to discuss what the countryside should look like with someone that makes their living from it - it's not like they are going to have an objective, altruistic motivation really is it? How would you define ruin?

 

 

 

Great swathes of chemically controlled, GM, sterile, mono crops as far as the eye can see....

 

 

 

Hedgerows smashed out and trees felled to allow access for bigger machinery....

 

 

 

Fields full of cows that have been intensively bred for over production of milk.....

 

 

 

Hills and moors grubbed out to improve grazing

 

 

 

Or is that my perception of "ruined?"

 

 

 

Getting the subsidy to smaller farmers is exactly what should be happening. The man/woman on the tools, the one getting up early and finishing late doing the job 7 days a week. Look at the table of subsidies in the attachment:

 

 

 

United Kingdom | FarmSubsidy.org

 

 

 

then try and tell me dairy farming (or any form of agriculture) needs MORE public money to subsidise it and I'll fall off my chair in despair.

 

 

 

I totally agree, it's hard graft and I totally agree we need UK producers, but instead of whining about how tough it is in farming, the NFU should be doing what it's meant to and support the workers not the V big landowners at the expense of the workers.

 

 

I do see your point and it's not black and white. The subsidy may not be a price subsidy in theory but in practice it turns out to be the case. And I also agree that the very large landowners are not the ones who need the subsidy it as you say the people at the bottom that need the subsidy not the huge estates

[hamdogg]

As previously said we pay taxes so farmers can get their subsidies... Perhaps if people paid the 'real' price of food they wouldn't waste so much....

 

 

 

I get the train through Scotland a lot, I see a lot of strawberry farms with dozens of people working there. It's fairly certain that they will be East european workers getting a fortune in benefits etc.

 

 

 

I honestly think if we import more food it would be cheaper for us as we wouldn't have to pay the farmers subsidies and pay to subsidise all the farmers Imported labour.

 

 

 

EU subsidies also mess up African farmers as they can't compete against food dumped from Europe.

 

 

Import more food?? Really?? God man 😡

[matelot]

Import more food?? Really?? God man 😡

 

Yeah everyone knows that Germany is building up it's U boat fleet to try and starve Britain into staying in the EU...

 

I just don't see food production as being a major part of the UK economy in coming years... If we can buy food from other places it's possible that places like Africa will be less of a sh1t hole.

 

The taxpayer pays a fortune in subsidies for farmers and the immigrants that the farmers need. It might be better to invest that money elsewhere...

 

Where does a lot of UK animal feed come from? South America? I don't see anything great about cutting down rainforests so that UK dairy farmers can import soya based feedstuffs...

 

Before people had alarm clocks there used to be a person that went round at 6am each morning and rattled peoples windows with a long stick to wake them up. Things just move on..

[mendiplogs]

Import more food?? Really?? God man 😡

 

Hi HAM if more and more milk there will be no farmers left very soon then who's going to look out to the countryside then thanks John

[eggsarascal]

Hi HAM if more and more milk there will be no farmers left very soon then who's going to look out to the countryside then thanks John

 

The big farms/estates that are geared-up for the job?

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

This will be my last post in the thread because it's just going round in circles.

 

 

Getting the subsidy to smaller farmers is exactly what should be happening. The man/woman on the tools, the one getting up early and finishing late doing the job 7 days a week. Look at the table of subsidies in the attachment:

 

United Kingdom | FarmSubsidy.org

 

then try and tell me dairy farming (or any form of agriculture) needs MORE public money to subsidise it and I'll fall off my chair in despair.

 

.

 

I've had to come out of premature retirement from the thread

 

Just spent a bit of time analysing the data available at the link:

 

Explore European Common Agricultural Policy farm subsidy payments | FarmSubsidy.org

 

I've got myself so raged up I wish I hadn't done it.

 

Look at how many government , Quango, Monarchy, colleges, Trusts, councils (to name just a few) that are drawing down the millions. It's no wonder there's FA left for the man at the bottom shovelling sht and pulling udders.

 

When this info hits the streets (it's all there, it's just that Joe Public doesn't really care or perhaps want to know) I think the NFU and DEFRA are going to be hoisted by their own petard.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

And this one:

 

Defra, UK - CAP Payments Search

 

will show exactly how much subsidy each UK farm receives.....

 

Now lets have a sensible discussion.....