when is it OK to physically restrain a member of the public

[Xaltu]

Even when you have a legal power to remove people, it does not necessarily mean force can be used. I have been that 'ego inflated person in hi-viz clothing' and quite happy to say I still am in the right circumstances. Sometime though voice is enough to safe a life!

[treequip]

You never touch someone you simply put your arms out and politely ask them to stop for a few seconds if they touch YOU or push you out the way you are allowed to use REASONABLE force.

Can't see how it should ever get to this stage though.

 

No you aren't, just because they have assaulted you doesn't mean you can assault them, you are supposed to set up a system of work that prevents the danger of injury to members of the public. Laying hands on people cant be part of that.

[Goaty]

I think for him- they often work in dodgy areas at night -where they find dangerous cables but haven't had time to get barriers erected. They have to deal with drunks etc. The advice is you can shout etc etc but not physically restrain. I was trying to suggest this wouldn't be enough in a court of law should it get to that.

Got me thinking how I would/should deal with the pedestrian who wouldn't stop as the branch was falling. Just forward planning really. We obviously need a policy.

 

Tasers or stunguns. No contact, problem neutralized:bluboomteamenforcer

 

Thats a whole nuther can of worms:001_rolleyes:

[David Humphries]

Well- this question has come up over Xmas when discussing with a friend who works for national Power- he's told by his bosses that the company won't back up a member of staff who physically stops a member of public entering their danger zone.

How good is that advice and what would you do.

 

 

Stay as calm and focused as possible

 

You just never know who you may be dealing with

 

Tree work and access is always a potentially explosive combination

 

Tree surgeon stabbed by woman in Chiswick - Get West London

 

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/27471-what-world-coming-tree-surgeon-stabbed-5.html

 

I agree with treequips advice regarding R/A SSOW are spot on.

Too often see inappropriate guarding and signage on (street) tree works.

 

 

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[Daniel Jiggins]

No you aren't, just because they have assaulted you doesn't mean you can assault them, you are supposed to set up a system of work that prevents the danger of injury to members of the public. Laying hands on people cant be part of that.

 

I didn't say assault them I said use reasonable force. If something is likely to fall you are preventing harm, serious injury or possibly death.

That's what I was told on My SIA door supervisor course but obviously not from a tree prospective though.

[Shane]

This begs a big moral question.

If our purpose is to keep everybody safe (HSWA 1974) then any action should be measured against the risk of the consequences of NOT taking that action.

 

But there is another issue - it is not expected that someone should put their own life at risk to protect another. The emergency services are currently deep in discussion on where to draw this line.

 

If a kamikazi arrogant tree hugger runs under a falling tree I don't know how I would react. I suspect if I thought it would lead to my own death I would not risk being a hero.

 

As some have said above - how could it have got to this situation?

 

I think it would be down to being able to prove that you took all reasonable precautions (Hence doing the risk assessment properly).

 

If you can stop the work while Mr/Mrs busybody walks 'where they are entitled' at least your system of working has coped with a complete pillock.

 

If the lowering has begun or the back cut is underway - and you can restrain them safely - do so. Your defence is surely that you are upholding the Safety of their life over and above their rights (are they legally allowed to kill themselves?)

 

Maybe our Method Statements/Risk Assessments need to include this.

[Dryar123]

It would be hard to quantify but two questions need to be asked. Was it necessary and was force used reasonable. Clearly if you man handled an old dear to the floor to prevent her walking past a chipper then the answer would be no. Saving someone's life could justify quite extreme force but is very scenario specific. It's a very similar consideration to using force in criminal matters. Section 3. Criminal Law Act 1967 permits the use of force which needs to be justified. And yes if someone strikes you then you can hit back.Provided you ask the two same questions. Was force used necessary and reasonable. You can lawfully act in self defence and even get in first in the circumstances allow..

[treequip]

I didn't say assault them I said use reasonable force. If something is likely to fall you are preventing harm, serious injury or possibly death.

That's what I was told on My SIA door supervisor course but obviously not from a tree prospective though.

 

And that's where it becomes inapplicable, you would be permitted to use reasonable force to prevent an on going assault but, if you try to restrain someone just so you can continue working, your reasonable force becomes assault.

 

A legally defendable system of working would eliminate this possibility.

[agg221]

I do big firework displays every November. The displays are rigged to fire automatically to music, ie hit the start button, sit back and watch for the next 20mins.

 

A couple of the sites I do have problems with teenagers climbing in over a 7ft steel fence and wandering around in the drop zone, note this isn't land with a public right of access and we are not responsible for security. This causes enormous problems as outright safety would dictate the show is stopped, but that means it is then ruined for the audience of up to 20,000 people, who have often paid £5 or so each, so they are unhappy, the organisers are unhappy, we would end up not being paid, despite having let off £10k worth of fireworks and the company would have the choice of paying the 10 or so people a day's wages from their own pocket, or not and losing the labour for next time.

 

So, we don't stop, unless they reach the fireworks themselves. To stop this, I, along with a couple of others, stand in the drop zone ourselves to drive them out. Voice alone normally does it, or charging straight at them (I probably hold some form of record for the 100m in steel toe capped wellies!) but the hi-viz mentality definitely comes into play in controlling them to leave the site, usually escorting them to the police who give them a good talking to, which at least stops them coming back for the remainder of the show.

 

Alec

Edited December 28, 2013 by agg221

[Daniel Jiggins]

And that's where it becomes inapplicable, you would be permitted to use reasonable force to prevent an on going assault but, if you try to restrain someone just so you can continue working, your reasonable force becomes assault.

 

A legally defendable system of working would eliminate this possibility.

 

Your missing the point i don't mean jump on someone just because they are ignoring your signage and entering your work zone.

 

I'm referring too live wires, lumps falling that would cause serious injury etc.

 

As long as you can justify REASONABLE that's what I'm happy to stick too.

 

Your right correct system of working wouldn't need this.