Instruction .

[treequip]

If it came to it you could write up some kind of disclaimer saying its not certified training and you hold no responsibilities, if its signed and dated by both parties you should be covered but there could be a whole load of paperwork to cover your ass, would it be worth it is the question? :-)

 

You can write all the caveats you like, it won't remove your liability.

[felixthelogchopper]

You can write all the caveats you like, it won't remove your liability.

 

Agreed. As soon as you set yourself up as a trainer, which is what you would be doing here whether paid or unpaid, the question has to be asked by whose standards are you competent? Industry standards recognise Lantra/NPTC and so would any court hearing a claim. If you don't have a recognised qualification to supply training, any decent lawyer would hang you out to dry in the event of your 'pupil' injuring themself. I have no doubt that you have all the knowledge and experience to give a very sound training session but, without the right piece of paper saying so, that means nothing. Do the felling work by all means but don't allow it to resemble a training opportunity in any way, and make sure your paperwork clearly shows this ie Price to remove x number of trees and deal with arisings only. Don't be tempted to let him pick up a running saw to try it out and if pressed, guide him to a suitable course nearby. If he is a sensible guy, he will understand and appreciate your caution with his safety in mind. If he isn't, you're well off out of it anyway.

[Spruce Pirate]

This thread makes me sad.

 

Has it really come to this? That an experienced operator cannot show another person how to operate a tool because they must ensure that they don't end up in court or held liable if something goes wrong?

 

I fully appreciate why people say that you should in no way offer training (indeed, you may be liable yourself if you say anything else!), but still, just sad really. It is a pretty poor reflection on our society if you ask me.

[treequip]

This thread makes me sad.

 

Has it really come to this? That an experienced operator cannot show another person how to operate a tool because they must ensure that they don't end up in court or held liable if something goes wrong?

 

I fully appreciate why people say that you should in no way offer training (indeed, you may be liable yourself if you say anything else!), but still, just sad really. It is a pretty poor reflection on our society if you ask me.

 

It's not in case something goes wrong, it's in case what you teach them gets them hurt.

 

I could teach someone to drive but the way I drive they'd be guaranteed a fail, if I taught them to the sylabus they would be in with a shout.

[agg221]

This thread makes me sad.

 

Has it really come to this? That an experienced operator cannot show another person how to operate a tool because they must ensure that they don't end up in court or held liable if something goes wrong?

 

I fully appreciate why people say that you should in no way offer training (indeed, you may be liable yourself if you say anything else!), but still, just sad really. It is a pretty poor reflection on our society if you ask me.

 

I echo this sentiment.

 

It's pretty much how I learned, and I appreciated the input from some skilled people. I read the available basic information on saw maintenance and felling and bucking first, but there is no substitute for seeing things done.

 

Anyone can buy any saw they like (even top handles if they buy secondhand on Ebay), and use it on any land with permission. They do not have to receive any training whatsoever. To me, a desire to observe someone doing it first rather than jumping straight in indicates a level of common sense, which is likely to go alongside an understanding of limitations and that they are not trained but are more confident on basic operations.

 

An aside - when I bought my first car I did all the maintenance as I couldn't afford to do anything else (and actually quite enjoyed it). The local dealership was really helpful - when something went wrong I took it along and they would give it a quick run up and down the road, tell me the parts I needed and give me a quick run-down on any difficult bits of the job. They were happy as they sold a lot of parts for what, in reality, was less than 10mins work on their part each time. I bought the parts from them and away I went. One day, I went in and they established the front wheel bearings were going. They advised me not to attempt it due to the torque involved, and I trusted their advice and booked it in.

 

A relevant parallel I think?

 

Alec

[Rob D]

This thread makes me sad.

 

Has it really come to this? That an experienced operator cannot show another person how to operate a tool because they must ensure that they don't end up in court or held liable if something goes wrong?

 

I fully appreciate why people say that you should in no way offer training (indeed, you may be liable yourself if you say anything else!), but still, just sad really. It is a pretty poor reflection on our society if you ask me.

 

 

Double ditto - the above.

 

 

Where does that start and where does it end?

 

If you show someone how to light a cigarette and they burn their house down? If you show someone how to use a lawnmower and they run over their foot? How to drill a hole and a fragment flies back into their eye?

 

 

Does anyone actually know where the lines are drawn as to what you can and can't do without accepting liability? I don't...

 

 

If you asked a customer to see you back when reversing out of their drive and you hit someone or something are you liable because you've asked an untrained person to see you back?

 

 

 

Sorry - rant over

[Rich2484]

I don't get it?

 

So he wants to know how a chainsaw works and how to cut with it.

 

I've taught people how to sharpen, start and care for there saw after having to fix them or sharpen them. I will always teach a person how to look after there saw so it is,

 

A, safer to use and operate.

B, less likely to get caught out by the saw if they are starting it wrong and not using it with great care.

 

So show him how to do felling cuts, how to start and operate it with cutting his arms off. The leave it at that. Explain you are in no way a trained assessor and if he gets it wrong he has to deal with it. Don't take him into the wood and show him how to fell a tree but tell him how to do it.

 

Taking care of the saw is more important than using it. Tell him then let him go do his own thing. After all you could get a callout after a hang up or stuck saw. Then make some money.

[felixthelogchopper]

Double ditto - the above.

 

 

Where does that start and where does it end?

 

If you show someone how to light a cigarette and they burn their house down? If you show someone how to use a lawnmower and they run over their foot? How to drill a hole and a fragment flies back into their eye?

 

 

Does anyone actually know where the lines are drawn as to what you can and can't do without accepting liability? I don't...

 

 

If you asked a customer to see you back when reversing out of their drive and you hit someone or something are you liable because you've asked an untrained person to see you back?

 

 

 

Sorry - rant over

 

No, you're liable because you are driving the vehicle so the buck stops with you.

[treequip]

I don't get it?

 

So he wants to know how a chainsaw works and how to cut with it.

 

I've taught people how to sharpen, start and care for there saw after having to fix them or sharpen them. I will always teach a person how to look after there saw so it is,

 

A, safer to use and operate.

B, less likely to get caught out by the saw if they are starting it wrong and not using it with great care.

 

So show him how to do felling cuts, how to start and operate it with cutting his arms off. The leave it at that. Explain you are in no way a trained assessor and if he gets it wrong he has to deal with it. Don't take him into the wood and show him how to fell a tree but tell him how to do it.

 

Taking care of the saw is more important than using it. Tell him then let him go do his own thing. After all you could get a callout after a hang up or stuck saw. Then make some money.

 

Maintenance of the saw is probably fine and showing someone how to sharpen a saw isn't doing to get you into bother, anything more than that and the conversation could go something like this

 

Ambulance chaser

So how did you get hurt?

Punter

I was cutting a tree down, can't understand it, the naive man at the saw shop told me how, don't know how I got it wrong.

Ambulance chaser

Would you like us to write him a letter ans ask him how it could have happened?, just sign here

[skyhuck]

This thread makes me sad.

 

Has it really come to this? That an experienced operator cannot show another person how to operate a tool because they must ensure that they don't end up in court or held liable if something goes wrong?

 

I fully appreciate why people say that you should in no way offer training (indeed, you may be liable yourself if you say anything else!), but still, just sad really. It is a pretty poor reflection on our society if you ask me.

 

Yes, sadly this is what we have come to

 

When we have a police officer suing a garage owner, because she fell over a curb in the dark

 

We now live in a world where many are looking for any opportunity to get free cash from any one who some sharp lawyer can pin some alleged blame on.

 

Its very sad, but IMO you need to be asking yourself at ever turn wether your leaving yourself open some liability or other.

 

To my mind its become like security, we need, when securing our tools a equipment, to think like criminal scum and try to workout how their despicable, loathsome minds work and act accordingly.

 

You never know who your dealing with and need to try to keep your backside covered.

 

Also you need insurance, just incase.

 

Its very sad, but thats modern life

Edited April 6, 2013 by skyhuck