NPTC's do they need tightening/stricter assesment?

[Rupe]

Having the tickets (rescue) does not mean you can be sent out with a climber as the rescuer. Any employer would need to see that you can rescue the climber in the situation he is likely to be in that day. SO a junoir recuer might be the rescuer on small jobs but it would not be ok to send him out with a much better climber if he's tip pruning big trees.

 

So that in itesefl kind of makes a mockery of nptc.

 

YOu cant sent a newly qualified chainsaw operator CS30+31 to go and fell a tree if its beyond his experience. The employer would be liable!

[sloth]

All joking aside I've refused (when climbing with a large-ish railway subcontractor) to climb with so called climbers. He was there as my ariel recuer, and always 'let' me as a keen climber go up. When I felt rough one day I asked him to go up. I had to tie his fishermans knots and vt. One of his alloy krabs was bent like a banana, he hadn't noticed and didn't know how it happened. I had words with the boss who offered me £1000 a year extra to shut up! I soon left!

My point is he should never have passed, he even cried when he couldnt pull his fat arse up the tree and I ended up doing. This was a grown man and no college leaver. I have seen several people who have shocked me that they passed.

If assessors aren't assessing properly and you are sure who/when, then report assessors and candidate to nptc who should investigate.

As an industry we should be comfortable that certificates of competency demonstrate just that! I took it for granted a guy with tickets could climb, had I come a cropper I'd have had to rescue myself or potentially bleed to death.

Why just accept bad practices? You all report traveling knocked off saw salesmen, yet know it will continue. This is something which if enough people report will weed out the dodgy assessors and go some way to fixing this issue...

 

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[Canal Navvy]

Having the tickets (rescue) does not mean you can be sent out with a climber as the rescuer. Any employer would need to see that you can rescue the climber in the situation he is likely to be in that day. SO a junoir recuer might be the rescuer on small jobs but it would not be ok to send him out with a much better climber if he's tip pruning big trees.

 

So that in itesefl kind of makes a mockery of nptc.

 

YOu cant sent a newly qualified chainsaw operator CS30+31 to go and fell a tree if its beyond his experience. The employer would be liable!

 

Good reply

 

Says somewhere in the C.S. 38 schedule "equipped ,able & willing":001_smile:

[Jesse]

I wonder if Tony the Arb god, wears a cape as he types??

 

Winging aside, Tony is genuine in his concerns, 12' or 12m's I know what its supposed to be, for me as long as some one can do it off the ground I'm reassured, if i'm ever in trouble up a tree and the chap or chape,s did not respond accordingly it would not be of a concern to the groundy what happened to me but what would happen on the ground once i got a hold of them, if i have checked that they have the ticket , and paid a premium for that reassurance, then they had better well be able to help me out in double quick time or the ambulance would not just be for me, and i talk with some experience of chainsaw cuts . But going back to THE BIG PROBLEM , colleges no longer have the one to one time to spend with students, at level 1 to level 2 its all about bums on seats, number crunching, and pulling in and pushing out as many students as possible, being a mature student my self (2005 onwards) i have witnessed this first hand. Processed cheese comes to mind and Tony has raised a good issue, its only in a real situation when a persons true ability shows.

[markieg31]

i went back to college in 2009 because i had no tickets and was finding employment difficult without them.

i did get a part time job with a reputable company while i was at college which gave me the hands on and 'grounded' experience that some of the other students lacked.

Pretty much the college were saying, finish the course, get a pick up and you will be getting 150 a day!!

i believe it is hard to get on in this industry unless you have worked from the ground up. ie start of by dragging brash.

 

A lot of the people on the course are not in arb anymore. They probably had a shock when they were asked to pick up some sticks or use a rake!

 

I came out of college with my 30 31 38.

 

I recently did my 39. i was on the assessment with 2 other people.

the assessment commenced at 9am and did not finish till 5pm. the guy was pretty thorough and put me through my paces.

The chap who did the training with us told one student that he was not ready for assessment which was the right thing to do. He struggled to climb up the tree and dont think he would have been any better getting about the crown and wielding a chainsaw.

 

As far as aerial rescues go's.

a groundie would pass the 38 and probably not climb again untill he is put on 39 training. When it comes to it they have forgotten most of what they were taught. I think companies should do regular practice runs, then it would be a well oiled machine and also identify people who need extra practice!

[hedgesparrow]

its like any training you can be trained and do the exam and pass with flying colours. but not use any of them skills for maybe months. Arial bit different as you should be able to climb like a monkey. but it does come down to practicing rescues.so when god forbid its needed those whose job it is to do the rescue can rescue. also its fine doing a rescue but how many who have the ticket id finding someone with a lot of blood will be able to cope with the mess. and not faint up tree making two to rescue. not a nice sight. maybe thats something when doing the first aid side there should be more realistic makeup to see first hand. wife did the accident makeup and its was gory stuff. not for the squeamish.

[WorcsWuss]

its like any training you can be trained and do the exam and pass with flying colours. but not use any of them skills for maybe months. Arial bit different as you should be able to climb like a monkey. but it does come down to practicing rescues.so when god forbid its needed those whose job it is to do the rescue can rescue. also its fine doing a rescue but how many who have the ticket id finding someone with a lot of blood will be able to cope with the mess. and not faint up tree making two to rescue. not a nice sight. maybe thats something when doing the first aid side there should be more realistic makeup to see first hand. wife did the accident makeup and its was gory stuff. not for the squeamish.

 

That is a very valid point, chainsaw wounds aren't pretty, and I think that for most of us, without being hardened to that sort of thing it can be quite disorienting.

I remember the first time I helped out with a cesaerian on a cow, it was pretty gory! Over the years I have become hardened to it a little, [and the births of a couple of kids have helped! ] but it's not the same as you see in a film or computer game. When the inside is on the outside right in front of you it can take some dealing with.

Combine that with working at a height which may be outside the rescuer's comfort zone and it could be a recipe for disaster....

I'm guessing those least likely to be phased by it are ex-services with first hand experience in the field of severe trauma to the human body.

I haven't done my aerial tickets... do they drive into you during the course that you're very likely to get covered in blood, muscle tissue, maybe chunks of bone during a rescue...?

Edited February 22, 2013 by WorcsWuss

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi all,

 

This is a very real problem in the industry and Tony is absolutely right to raise it .

 

I guess the responsibility prinicapply lies with the climber, not excusing 'the employer' of course but they may be unaware, to ensure they are happy and confident with the person assigned to do aearil rescue, if not, and, in relaity, if it's a tricky job, then it shouldn't go ahead.

 

IMHO the best businesses are those who have two expereinced and compteent climbers....oh yeah, and 'qualified' of course, on site perhaps sharing the climbing and/or climbing at the same time, partic on big / tricky jobs. May sound expensive but often increased productivity AND safety.

 

YOUR industry 'good practice' guide indicates that aerial rescue practice should be undertaken every 3 months...interestingly. I would also recommend this be recorded (if only a note in the managers diary.)

 

LASTLY, if I may, your concern about the prevaling 'ticket culture' and not recognising industry experience, knowledge and training = TRUE competnece, is exactly whta the Prof. Skills Framework (PFS) & 'Regsiter of Tree Work Operatives' (R2) is seeking to address...I'll dive for cover now, BUT please, please be open-minded here...."reet I'm off!"

 

Thanks for your time all..

Paul

[arbogrunt]

tickets are just pieces of paper at the end of the day. Take 1/2 a day out, practice aerial rescue with the blokes you work with, using the kit you climb with......then get down the cafe for a full English!. Everyone should know where the first aid kit is, the phone is, the rescue kit is..and where the RA is.

 

Lets face it, if we don't prepare for these situations, when they happen are YOU confident your blokes can get you down/YOU can get your mate down?...it would be hard on you for the rest of your life if your found out that you couldn't.....

[Yorkshireman]

An interesting thread

 

are assessments in need of "tightening/stricter" ?

 

assessments are carried out to a set known standard on that day on demonstration in those specific site dynamic / conditions , much in the way an mot is carried out on that day .. but once the MOT is issued you could in theory not manage or maintain the vehicle for its parts for another twelve months [ not with standing the construction and use or highways and #Vosa legislation]

 

Do we need more ?

 

firstly can businesses afford more training and assessment ??

 

after all these things cost money not only fees but the wages of the individual and the loss to income to the business whilst the training and assessment is undertaken

 

For experienced operators or those trained in house of course Assessments can be taken without any formal training in so far as the candidate & employer believes he/she will reach/meet the required criteria..

however if that person fails then the short route isn’t perhaps the best

 

BUT AND this is a big BUT employers having spent money on training, assessment , wages and taken a hit on productivity cant stop that person leaving two days later and working for themselves or for their competitors down the road who will pay more wages ,[ which they can pay as they haven’t laid out the above expenditure

 

SO do we need ??? is one question

a wholly other is

Will or can industry afford to PAY ??

 

after all Nptc is an assessment of that candidate on a given day and is not an assessment of Excellence but of their competence

to a known national standard which are agreed by those in ivory towers somewhere who who sit on such panels criteria taking in a wide spectrum of Tree industry dynamics ,, not solley those of the Urban arborist

 

Do I agree one size fits all ? NO

 

should we have a base of competancy ? YES

 

which can then be developed on ! a fork in the road divergence !!

 

to meet the use of the chainsaw by the operator perhaps either toward the forestry setting or the Arboricultural setting two totally different environments

 

So can we as chainsaw holder of Cs31 say we have been assessed to fell a tree in a forest YES as thats where we do our assessment BUT can we say we where in the urban setting where the dynamics are more demanding NO

Edited February 22, 2013 by Yorkshireman