need qualification to buy a top handle

[Coletti]

I can understand that, and I'll agree it is very much a privilege for specialists making working much easier. I still think there should be some sort of qualification for them! Little correction on what I've already said, It definitely states, by my course provider, that I am to have a top handle saw there for meaning they are available legitimately before you've passed cs39? Has anyone ever been asked to produce a qualification? If so what did they ask for when buying a top handle?

[TreePuncher]

It definitely states, by my course provider, that I am to have a top handle saw there for meaning they are available legitimately before you've passed cs39?le

 

i know this is really stupid, I remember being asked the same, and when I done my UA2 tickets I was told I had to supply my own insulated rods.... What I would be doing with a set of rods without the ticket to use them I don't know.....

[skyhuck]

cs39 has got nothing to do with using a top handle saw either at least it wasnt when i did it a few years back right enough . Having to purchase one to do this course is nonsense .

Lets just tell all our clients that we are arborists, without any written evidence whatsoever to back it up . What makes us any different then to the section of community everyone has a dig at ? To me arguing that you can be much more skilled with no qualifications at all , although very true just aint gonna wash anymore with a more informed public / customer

 

In 20 years of business not one domestic customer has asked about certs.

[Treewolf]

Reverting to the OP's question, then:-

 

1) there is no legal requirement for the seller of a top-handled (or indeed any other type of) saw to ask for any proof of CSxx certification or indeed any proof of competence at all. It is entirely legal to sell any saw to any adult.

 

2) Any seller of any object has a legal right to decline to sell to any person provided that this is not on the basis of illegal discrimination. So you can decline to sell a saw to someone because you feel that they are unsuitable or untrained, but not because thy are black/female/Asian etc.

 

3) Any person can operate a chainsaw of any type legally in this country. There may be things you are not allowd to do with it, but you do not need any qualifications or training of any kind at all to operated a top-handled saw entirely legally, however...

 

4) If you are employed by someone, or self-employed, the employer has legal obligations under HASAW, PUWER, etc to make sure that their employee(s) only use(s) equipment which they have been adequately trained to use and are adequately competent to use.

 

5) There is no legal definition of what adequately trained or adequately competent means, and for this reason the arb industry has generally adopted the practice of the CSxx qualifications to demonstrate competence. If you have CS39 you are considered competent, but if you don't there is no legal basis for presuming that you are not competent. If an employer has other means (for example in-house training) of demonstrating competence and training then that, provided that it is sufficiently robust to withstand scrutiny, is legally satisfactory. For example, it is probably entirely satisfactory to argue that if you can demonstrate that a person has been using a top-handled saw up a tree for 40 years without incident but has never had any formal training, then they are competent (mind you they've been up the tree a rather long time)!

 

6) Because of the difficulty of establishing suitability and competence, the majority of retailers (usually under pressure from the manufacturers who naturally feel that reports in the press of people sawing their own limbs off or killing themselves are not good for business) adopt a policy of requiring proof of competence at time of sale. There are various ways this can be done, most commonly by showing CS39 (or whatever) certification, by having a handover discussion. In the case of a top-handled saw being bought by someone without CS39, I would like to think that if the salesman or possibly the manager would have a chat to establish whether the prospective purchase was a suitable and competent person.

 

So what is in reality a fairly simple situation (anybody can legally buy and use any saw) is made complicated by the fact that everyone is desperately keen to cover their arse against being sued by someone for something! In this mad world we have created, you can bet that if a dealer sold a topper to Johnny Householder, and Johnny then cut off his leg because he was an idiot, before long he would be suing the retailer with the help of a parasitic no-win-no-fee lawyer on the basis that the retailer hadn't told him that it was dangerous to use the saw one-handed whilst standing on a stepladder balanced on a table under the tree, whilst 'tweeting' with his other hand.

 

In reality unless the law changes to make it a specific legal requirement to hold CS39 for a topper, you will never be able to stop the unregulated resale of toppers. Since they are not generally used for crime, accidents are generally rare, and the present system works fairly well, this is unlikely to happen. It is tough for the experienced person without CS39 tyring to buy one, but there are ways it can sensibly be done.

 

I should point out that although this is my assessment of the law based on a thorough study, I am not a lawyer nor am I a dealer.

[treequip]

 

5) There is no legal definition of what adequately trained or adequately competent means, and for this reason the arb industry has generally adopted the practice of the CSxx qualifications to demonstrate competence. If you have CS39 you are considered competent, but if you don't there is no legal basis for presuming that you are not competent. If an employer has other means (for example in-house training) of demonstrating competence and training then that, provided that it is sufficiently robust to withstand scrutiny, is legally satisfactory. For example, it is probably entirely satisfactory to argue that if you can demonstrate that a person has been using a top-handled saw up a tree for 40 years without incident but has never had any formal training, then they are competent (mind you they've been up the tree a rather long time).

 

That would be my take on the issue but there are those who say that the award needs to be a national one.

[Craig.]

Good post Treewolf, thats the way I see it as well.

Point 5, No one wants to stick their neck on the line and say so and so is compentent to do the task, so use tickets to prove and cover their back.

People take it as law you need licence or ticket xyz to do a job.

The only ticket I`m aware of you personally legally needing is a driving licence.

As said in other posts experience would win hands down,but with the way of things now,no win no fee, claims against you etc, you need the bit of paper.

We Should use it to our advantage when selling our service, xx years experience and qualified.

Qualification to buy top handle, turn up at customers to do job they said looking at your topper, "they look handy i tryed to buy one but the dealer said you need to be qualified to buy that", must look good on you.

[WorcsWuss]

Excellent summary Treewolf. The vital point people need to remember in all of this is that regulations pertaining to use of top handled saws only relate to their application under PUWER & HSW, which means that if it doesn't apply to you, then you can do what you like with a top handled saw, including buying one. Which is basically anything in the privacy of your own home, including butchering yourself through stupidity if you so choose.

This basic right means that yes, anyone can go out and buy a chainsaw, top handled or otherwise, without qualification or experience, and merrily chop away, hanging off a stepladder, until the inevitable happens.

Stihl helpfully try to reduce the numbers injured by their products by only selling face to face. This is less a legal issue and more a professional and social responsibility policy.

The right for anyone to purchase just about anything for our own personal use is one of the few things still great about this country. We'd all be a bit cheesed off if we could no longer buy welders without being a qualified engineer, because the HSE want to protect us from arc eye or some other such nonsense....

[Le Sanglier]

Excellent summary Treewolf. The vital point people need to remember in all of this is that regulations pertaining to use of top handled saws only relate to their application under PUWER & HSW, which means that if it doesn't apply to you, then you can do what you like with a top handled saw, including buying one. Which is basically anything in the privacy of your own home, including butchering yourself through stupidity if you so choose.

This basic right means that yes, anyone can go out and buy a chainsaw, top handled or otherwise, without qualification or experience, and merrily chop away, hanging off a stepladder, until the inevitable happens.

Stihl helpfully try to reduce the numbers injured by their products by only selling face to face. This is less a legal issue and more a professional and social responsibility policy.

The right for anyone to purchase just about anything for our own personal use is one of the few things still great about this country. We'd all be a bit cheesed off if we could no longer buy welders without being a qualified engineer, because the HSE want to protect us from arc eye or some other such nonsense....

 

Too right, I don't know why people worry if Joe Public buys a topper, so what?

[WorcsWuss]

[/u][/b]

Too right, I don't know why people worry if Joe Public buys a topper, so what?

 

In the US, from some of the manufacturer's websites which I have read, I believe that top handles are often marketed to homeowners [i'm sure Ted or another stateside member will correct me if wrong] primarily for the reasons the HSE deem unsafe over here, ie one handed use etc.... And there doesn't seem to be armageddon over there, nor unemployed tree surgeons scrounging for coppers under railway bridges....

 

A top handled saw is ultimately just a tool like any other, dangerous in the wrong hands, but still nothing more than a tool. I get a bit cheesed off with the culture of fear which seems to breed and be bred around them....

[Rich2484]

In the US, from some of the manufacturer's websites which I have read, I believe that top handles are often marketed to homeowners [i'm sure Ted or another stateside member will correct me if wrong] primarily for the reasons the HSE deem unsafe over here, ie one handed use etc.... And there doesn't seem to be armageddon over there, nor unemployed tree surgeons scrounging for coppers under railway bridges....

 

A top handled saw is ultimately just a tool like any other, dangerous in the wrong hands, but still nothing more than a tool. I get a bit cheesed off with the culture of fear which seems to breed and be bred around them....

 

I can agree with you on this. It's a tool hp just like any other. The only thing that gets people up is the fact that it can be used one handed. Bit like a gun can be used one handed, just because it can doesn't mean you will.

 

Don't think there is really much of a case for all this anymore as other top handles are available now and with the Internet it's not actually necessary to go to a dealer to buy one apwhen you can order online and just sit back and wait for the postman. And really the cheap top handles can be more dangerous than the pro made saws. We have all seen the cheap Chinese copies of saws and everyone has said how dangerous they look.....