Rates of pay?

[Steve Bullman]

Seems to be too much emphasis on what people are 'worth' and not what people should be realistically earning. Bearing in mind how much the cost of living has rocketed, particularly in the past 2-3 years, yet our wages have barely changed in the past 10 years. All people talk about is how our industry isnt taken seriously....its not surprising really!

[benedmonds]

I posted this before but it is still valid, the data might be a little out of date.

 

The Labour Force Survey, For non-graduates, show that average earnings were around £15,000 for 22-year-olds earnings increased every year until the age of 30 before levelling off and peaking at £19,400 at 34.

 

So taking 230 work days a year (4 weeks holiday etc) £65 for a 22 year old

to - £84 a day for a 34 year old freelance worker.

 

Annual salary equivalent

£120 a day works out at £27,600.

£150 a day works out as £34,500 .

£190 per day a pretty good £43,700..

 

Are many of the small business owners making that? I bet they are working more then 230 days.

 

Admittedly you do have more risk as a free lancer but also have freedom..

[RPA]

Two firm price the same job, one is paying the climber £100, the other is paying £190, who's going win the job????

 

Who can change this???????? only the climbers!

 

 

The firm with a climber on £100 also gets a week full of work

 

OH and if the post about tight employers was aimed at me I actually pay one climber up to £200/day because he is worth it.

Then again if I'm cutting a hedge I pay my son £50 to help tidy up

BUSINESS nothing more or less

[Stephen Blair]

I worked for £100 a day for about 4 weeks back in 1999, and haven't since! A climber is a climber, there are loads of them and in utility you don't have to be very good because there are loads of guys on site and loads of kit at their disposal And big companies have queues of guys lining up to be the super star climber.

The money is in working for yourself. You make more money with an electric hedge cutter and putting the trimmings in their brown bin by 11am, but it just isn't as cool. Some guys will make money, others won't.

[RPA]

Seems to be too much emphasis on what people are 'worth' and not what people should be realistically earning. Bearing in mind how much the cost of living has rocketed, particularly in the past 2-3 years, yet our wages have barely changed in the past 10 years. All people talk about is how our industry isnt taken seriously....its not surprising really!

 

I understand fully and agree Steve but if I put my prices up to where they should be I would be working part time at best, not sitting booking in work for December. I believe we are ALL worth a lot more but believing in something and actually being able to implement it are unfortunately to different things in reality.

Reality sucks.

[Andy Collins]

Surely things have moved on in the last few years? Costs have risen to unprecedented new highs for everyone, not just the ones running the businesses. Even the lowliest groundies cost of living are high now, running a car, food and rent costs. I was earning more as a groundie back ten years or so ago, than some climbers are getting paid now, climbers were earning more than I was. Begs the question, what has gone wrong? I think it's simply supply and demand. Too many churned out of college these days, far more than 15years ago. Too many companies chasing the same work. Too much supply, limited demand for the work. It will keep the prices down, for the employers, and the knock on is reflected in what is available to pay staff.

So what to do about it? I went on my own, if you want a true idea of what bosses have to sort out so you can earn your wages, then try and earn it for yourself for one year. Some will make it, and stay self employed, others will beg for a job at any rate they can get. I would never want the pressure, the responsibility of employing several staff, in a recessive period in particular. Most bosses are playing the long game, not get rich quick, and would rather guarantee staff a ton a day, than go broke trying to meet £150 a day.

[eggsarascal]

Read the last line of my post very slowly and carefully!!!!

 

£500/week = £25K/year. Not bad in the current economic climate even buying your own ppe. If you only end up with 50% of that being self -employed get a better accountant.

 

The point of my post was a business can only pay what is economically viable to pay. I an not saying that the OP is being paid right of wrong just that there are many more factors than a personal opinion of your own worth.

 

I did read the last line of ya post slowly and carefully!!!!

 

£500 a week does not = £25k a year, Most people have things called sickness, training (refresher days) and holidays, probably 4-5 weeks a year the lucky ones might get bank holidays on top of this (not paid if your a subby) so your £25k pales in to insignificance.

 

I aint done the sums but a rough guess after tax would take your £25k to alot less than £20k (i'm only guessing this, not got a fag packet) to work it out on but it won't be to far out.

[T14EES T14UNK]

Just to change the point slightly...

Isn't 5days a week, full time for two years supposed to be full time employment, without the same rights of tax relief etc for a self employed person.

I think both parties are doing ok here.

 

I can't afford to pay £100 every day for all year. I have paid more on occasions but if I need someone that is better than that then it's my job to do the work myself. I only run a small company so it's not the same as doing railways or utilities. But the OP isn't really self employed.

[jaime bray]

Seems to be too much emphasis on what people are 'worth' and not what people should be realistically earning. Bearing in mind how much the cost of living has rocketed, particularly in the past 2-3 years, yet our wages have barely changed in the past 10 years. All people talk about is how our industry isnt taken seriously....its not surprising really!

 

Steve this post is not aimed at you directly, but some of the content may connect with your post about cost of living going up.

 

One of the issues to consider, especially within the domestic market, is that although the cost of living has gone up. Unfortunately with some of the 'bread and butter' work that employers rely on to break even in the quiet periods or when a day just can not be as productive, increasing the price for this work is a considerably hard sales pitch from the employer to the 12 years of loyalty client.

 

There are many untrained and inexperienced people operating within the tree industry as a company or self employed gardeners/ tree companys, and many take away the bread and butter work that employers rely on. Some of which find training as they go, others pick it up as they go, others get a job in a diiferent industry when it arises. These are the people threatening the employers standard of living that he, like his employees, would like or have become accustomed too. The quality of their work may not be to dissimiliar to the work we did at the start of our careers, however, they will do their sales pitch, come in a lot cheaper and maybe for that year only, take the trade away. We all lose!!

 

Bread and butter work; okay we'll pay you bread and butter wages. Top notch work; okay we'll pay you with a golden ticket too. This situation is not feasible. There needs to be a balance set between employer and employee. If this balance is influenced by the local market and the supply and demand of tree workers/ arborists/ ground persons and the demand by the client for the work, in that area, then that is a consideration for the person to decide what they do.

 

 

If we were to turn around to full time staff and say listen lads your on 80 today as the two jobs youre doing are not good earners, but do not worry as next week i am on a right nice job where by we'll all cream it in. So you'll get 150 a day, employees would not stay with the company.

 

An additional factor maybe that employers often hear people say how good they are, only to see the person shaking like a pooping dog when arriving on site and seeing a tree of 80-120ft over a green house, with a small drop zone and awful branch structure. Prices within a company/employee/ subbie relationship will stagnate, with appropriate communication it may be resolvable.

 

If as a sub-contract climber came to me and said i want 190 a day, id say no worries, do you mind if i guarantee you a minmum of 120-150 for the first day as I am reluctant to commit to your opinion of yourself, and would rather protect my pocket and judge for myself.

 

If that person was amazingly competent, proficient, polite, punctual, conscientious and a breath of fresh air, id say, listen unfortuantely I do not get the kind of work to warrant paying someone with your skill base that figure all the time, as most of my work is relatively easy in comparison to the more taxing jobs, so ill give you a call when i get a good job for a man of your calibre. Id imagine that if the local market didnt depict that level of wage, that he'd say ok what would you pay me for a day or two here and there. if not he'd move on and work for somebody else or end up working for himself if hes that good.

 

Wages will vary not only nationally but locally, as we all have different living costs, and business models. What employees need to be aware of is that they can at any point, within the binding content of their contract walk away and go else where, sub contractors can decide, that they do not want to work for such a wage and go else where. Employers; they to have rights, and can decide what they feel is an adequate wage for them to pay staff within the law. If neither is happy, then the laws of this fine land in which we all live enable us to make arrangements for said situation to be changed.

 

It was said to me at business school that you should try and ensure that your wages, over the course of a year, equate to no more than a quarter of the company annual expenses. If this is not the case and you regulary are paying more or less then it MAYBE the case that something may need to be looked at.

 

If your not happy with your cars fuel consumption you change it, same as your gas supplier and wife.... If youre not happy with your employer then change it, or at least broach the subject with them in an orderly and considered manner. Why are you worth more. Put yourself in the shoes of the employer trying to justify his price to a client and justify yourself to him. If your good at it, you'll get the wage rise, if not you either drop your price or say let somebody else do it for that then, and part company.

 

 

 

Can not beleive Ive write all that. haha.

Edited October 27, 2012 by jaime bray

[RPA]

I did read the last line of ya post slowly and carefully!!!!

 

£500 a week does not = £25k a year, Most people have things called sickness, training (refresher days) and holidays, probably 4-5 weeks a year the lucky ones might get bank holidays on top of this (not paid if your a subby) so your £25k pales in to insignificance.

 

I aint done the sums but a rough guess after tax would take your £25k to alot less than £20k (i'm only guessing this, not got a fag packet) to work it out on but it won't be to far out.

 

Sounds like running a business then so they should no how the boss feels

A freelance can always say no, their choice.

 

Good post Andy. Gives the perfect solution - if you don't like it get off your arse and be a boss