Anyone else tearing their Hair out??

[Mark Bolam]

Evening all,

 

After having read all the comments on this thread i felt i had to have a small input to it.

 

I am new to this industry and as like everyone else that is new, Im finding it hard to get a foot in the door.

 

I have emailed and phoned various companies to try and get some experience, ive even offered to gain experience by doing work voluntarily. This has all drawn a blank. So Let me voice my opinion and please don't shoot me down in flames but it is what ive experienced.

 

1) like i say i contacted lots of companies looking for some work to gain experience i don't expect much if any money for this.

 

2) I decide to go out and get my cs30 +cs31. At the start of the course we were all asked what tree stuff people had done, there were varying answers. During my course i have a look at on arbtalk and read about a guy who had failed his cs31 but passed his cs30. There were lots of comments about going getting some practice in and doing lots of practise cuts on trees until confident.

 

3) I read a lot about about people undercutting people and so called Gypsies doing rubbish work etc.

 

So these are my findings and i just want to quickly summerise.

 

Only one of the many companies ever gave me any work for which i am gratful but this not that often. Companies and i can understand want people with qualifications. Fine i go out and pass my cs30+31. During the course i felt quite useless at times as i didn't have the confidence as some of the others as i didn't have the experience! I have no where that i can practise cuts etc as no body in the industry is going to let me loose on trees that i have no experience in.

So to go back to the original thread, I passed my cs30 and 31 i can fell small trees upto a diameter of 15", if i was offered a small tree to take down cut up and take away then i would. What would i charge??? Ive no idea because im having to learn as i go on, Probably less than £100!!!

 

The feeling i get is that experinced established companies don't want all these as some people put it "young college leavers" to come straight out of college with no experience and start working as their competition. What else can they do????

 

People also say I wouldn't do this job for less than this or im not breaking my back for that, and then are constantly saying to newbies that this is a tough industry and back breaking work.

 

All im saying here is if a lot more established compaines maybe gave some of the newbies a bit more of a chance and an opportunity to gain some valuble work experience then maybe there would be less of this so called under cutting???

 

Im sorry to go on and i hope that makes sense.

Ed

 

How are companies meant to take on new lads when they haven't got enough work for the lads they have got?

 

I feel your pain bro, but it really is that bad out there.

 

Noone ever said life was fair.

[felixthelogchopper]

How are companies meant to take on new lads when they haven't got enough work for the lads they have got?

 

I feel your pain bro, but it really is that bad out there.

 

Noone ever said life was fair.

 

Very true, mate. Trouble is that means that underpricing, whether out of inexperience or desperation, will keep going on as new people take the only option available which is to chase their own work.

[pos1981]

I know what your saying mark and I haven't got a clue what the answer is. I didn't have any interest at going self employed I would be more than happy working for someone. I still won't go self employed but I can see why people do and this is why work is under cut and like felixthelogchopper says weather through inexperience or chasing work it's going to happen. I see that there is talk from lantra I believe about having some sort of apprentice scheme?? Not sure whether that would work.

[Pedroski]

POS1981, the best bet might actually be to go self-employed. Sort all your own stuff out from point of view of self-assessment for tax, equipment etc, and offer your services that way. You might pick up some work like that.

[pos1981]

I understand what you say pedroski but this is where the undercutting starts

[Pedroski]

I understand what you say pedroski but this is where the undercutting starts

 

No it doesn't have to at all. There would be no harm in you going self-employed, as you have every legal and moral right to do so, and approaching firms offering your services as a self-employed groundy. It's probably better than approaching them asking for free experience or for paid work when they can't afford the employees they have. As a self-employed fella they could USE you for the odd job here and there when an extra person is needed, and they don't have any obligation to keep you on as an employee - so no obligation to pay you holiday pay, sick pay etc.

 

And if you pick up your owns jobs then that's all good too. Just make sure you are properly insured, price things realistically so you do well out of it etc (rather than stupid cheap as that is when undercutting happens). You are your own bloke. Look out for yourself and get out there. If you get a job doing something that is too big for you then call in one of the firms you have approached before. Make it a two-way street.

[winchman]

I get a new lad fom college every year to give them a chance, ive had some very bad, some not so bad and 1 great! I think what the problem is that people come out of college and try to set up as self employed but they have very little or no experience in the industry, so what i think thy need to do if their end goal is to be self employed in this trade is t get employment and stay in employment untill full capable of all tasks involved. Once you are confident and able in knowledge and skill then you should look to become a self employed arvorist.

 

Lack of knowledge is a far greater crime than lack of skill

Thats spot on.

I look at some engineers we meet and to be honest most havent got a clue until they have 5 years of the right experiance under there belt.

You will no dount see people who just dont know things you think they should.

I have seen people running training courses who are not very experianced in the subject they are teaching, so you alos have to look at the quality of training, its difficult for people like Ed but the way to progress is to work for some one else.

[felixthelogchopper]

No it doesn't have to at all. There would be no harm in you going self-employed, as you have every legal and moral right to do so, and approaching firms offering your services as a self-employed groundy. It's probably better than approaching them asking for free experience or for paid work when they can't afford the employees they have. As a self-employed fella they could USE you for the odd job here and there when an extra person is needed, and they don't have any obligation to keep you on as an employee - so no obligation to pay you holiday pay, sick pay etc.

 

And if you pick up your owns jobs then that's all good too. Just make sure you are properly insured, price things realistically so you do well out of it etc (rather than stupid cheap as that is when undercutting happens). You are your own bloke. Look out for yourself and get out there. If you get a job doing something that is too big for you then call in one of the firms you have approached before. Make it a two-way street.

 

Pretty much how I got started.

[DN22 Gardening]

there's a shortage of self employed groundies round here.

 

all anyone wants is to come on the books

 

if you're a small employer like us, self employed subbies enable us to expand without having to comit to full time employees.

then, if or when the extra work becomes more regular, you can take ful time staff on.

ideally it'll be the subby who helped you in the first place

[StephF]

Also, I have found on more than a few occasions that ill get a call from a customer with an enquiry for a reduction. I will price it to be done properly and lets say it will take a day and my day rate is £500, I will not hear anything back from the customer so ill have a drive past to see if the work has been done and to my horror someone has butchered the tree! This must have only taken the person 3 hours or so!

 

People are doing sub-standard work and getting away with it due to lack of customers knowledge, and customers being so price driven!

 

A lot of the time customers are more interested in how cheep they can get the job done for, rather than how well the job will be done.

 

Makes me sick

Completely agree with you Chris, I'm not interested in anyone who wants a cheap job, and it is tragic to see what can be done to butcher a tree, and if you have the pleasure (not!) of working on it years down the line it is a nightmare to try and get the tree to look respectable, at the end of the day you get what you pay for. There seems to be no interest whatsover from the arb officers in NE to any sub standard work, they neglect the roadside trees and fail to enforce law that could get landowners to look after roadside trees that are in dangerous states of decay and neglect.