Whats Wrong With the Current System.

[Mark Paul]

I recently submitted a tender for local authority work and was asked to include our health & Safety policy plus generic method statements & risk assessments. I also attended a pre assessment work shop for the AA approved contractors scheme. All of which has high lited the issue of staff training including NPTC. However the bottom line is or so it seems that as the employer I have to determine 'On the day' whether the person is competent to undertake the task I assign. Now apart from ill health or being under the influence, shurley being NPTC qualified should mean that the person is competent. However after recently holding a series of practical interviews for a new climber ,none of the candidates i saw were competent'. So if we are going to have to have tickets lets make sure that they are given to people who deserve them rather than handing them out and then putting the full responsibility on the employer. Personally I would welcome it if they made any one who works on protected trees be registered in the same way a gas fitter is corgi registered or at least enforce BS3998 One last thing why do they ask you to pay a registration fee for every NPTC ticket you take even if you are doing 2 in a day.

[kingswood]

Pity this thread is slowing down because it's a subject that affects us all. Cards on the table first I am a Lantra instructor and NPTC assessor. There are 2 points I would like to make here.

 

Firstly, there has been a lot of criticism of the existing system, and I agree with some of it, but to some extent the basic problem is that people are expecting too much of it. When you first pass your driving test, you do not suddenly become an expert driver. All you have done is to achieve the baic skills that allow you to go out on the road and really start to learn. No employer in their right mind would give you a job as a professional driver straight away. The same is true of a chainsaw ticket, or a climbing ticket. All they can ever give you is the basic skills to stay safe while you really start to learn in a commercial environment. Employers are being unrealistic if they think that someone who has just passed these units is competent in the professional sense. We do a challenging and technical job which takes years to really master. Maybe 'Certificate of Comptence' is not a good name.

 

Secondly, if you look at the causes of accidents in this industry, it is almost always the same. Either the person has done something they have been taught not to do (e.g cutting and holding, or using the saw one-handed in front of their face), or they have neglected to do something they have been taugt to do (e.g. use 2 anchor points when cutting, or keep a safe distance from energised cables). Instructors and assessors can and should maintain the highest standards but they have no control at all over how people actually work. Once the assessments are over, it is down to site supervision and the professionalism of the rest of the team.

 

Maybe there should be rules about newly qualified operators working under an accredited foreman for a while. There are certainly ways that the existing certification system could be improved, but I think a lot of this industry's safety problems arise because of a lack of ongoing attention to these issues after the units have been achieved. I am not a fan of over-regulation - far from it - and I am not claiming to know how to do this, but I think this is the area that needs looking at.

[DriveLink]

...and to carry on from Kingswood...

 

Surely the use of recording CPD (continuous profession development) would be useful in tracking the experience being gained by chainsaw users / climbers?

 

All teachers must now be a member of the Institute for Learning and record CPD; and many other industries require their people to do the same. Perhaps mandatory membership of a professional trade organisation should be considered?

 

David.

[Lee Winger]

My guess from reading the above posts is, most of you don't pay for your own tickets! if you did you'd get your heads out of the clouds!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Recording CPD my rear end, ha like I/we haven't got enough paperwork....

 

Proper old school apprenticeships thats all we need..

[Laz]

...and to carry on from Kingswood...

 

Surely the use of recording CPD (continuous profession development) would be useful in tracking the experience being gained by chainsaw users / climbers?

 

All teachers must now be a member of the Institute for Learning and record CPD; and many other industries require their people to do the same. Perhaps mandatory membership of a professional trade organisation should be considered?

 

David.

 

WHAT???

 

Being a member of such an institute has got no relevance for the instruction of industry specific technical skills! We don't don't need more irrelevant badges and government hoops that aren't cost effective.

[DriveLink]

CPD and membership of an institute were just ideas - I thought this was a discussion on how best to serve the needs of the industry? It seems that this thread is turning in to a them & us situation - employers on one side and those involved in teaching on the other.

 

This is not what it's about - we both essentially want the same thing... safe working and new entrants in to the industry have some form of training.

 

Personally, I'm on the verge of pulling out of this link as there seems to be little actual discussion!

 

In an attempt to bring about such... here goes...

 

Current system of NPTC accreditation (which is currently being overhauled anyway) seems to provide employers with a known base level of working knowledge. This provides a starting point on which those taking part can build on this knowledge via experience. I do think that holding mandatory refresher sessions every 3-5 years would be a good thing so that any changes in working practice can be disseminated across the industry. These refreshers could be via training organisations, seminars, completed at the various trade shows, etc. I also wonder whether insurance companies will want this in the future anyway...?

 

Apprenticeships are a good way of getting staff trained - as an employer you get an extra member of staff to do various tasks and the ability to train them as they go along. Indeed the government are quite supportive of this (for example the Train To Gain initiative, apprenticeships and so on).

 

Neither way is free and both have their advantages and disadvantages - so can we have a proper discussion about what your needs as an employer are (or indeed an employee) and how you see either NPTC or apprenticeships working in the real world.

 

Cheers,

David.

[Big 'Ammer]

I'd like to see something along the lines of a certificate a competence issued as it is now, with a certificate of proficiency issued after so many hours logged doing the various tasks.

 

Once issued, you are both qualified and experienced and then have the certificates for life.

 

I may be wrong, but I think the Germans have something like it in their forestry tests.

 

Whether it would work or not and was open to abuse is another thing?

 

I do not believe that making 'old hands' resit basic stuff serves any purpose other than lining the coffers of the training providers.

 

If long standing certificate holders have managed to get along without injury or accident so far then they are clearly comfortable with doing it 'their way'.

 

It should be up to them whether they want to be updated on newer techniques which may be quicker or easier than 'older' ways.

 

There can't be many people these days on 3 strand and prussic or not using a friction saver, but it doesn't mean that climbing on them is some how unsafe.

 

And I can't see some radical new technique coming along to replace gob and hinge felling!

[bob]

WHAT???

 

Being a member of such an institute has got no relevance for the instruction of industry specific technical skills! We don't don't need more irrelevant badges and government hoops that aren't cost effective.

 

i beg to dissagree with you on that one i,m afraid if everyone that had recieved some training got a industry publication which covered reviews on new products safety issues new ideas and new methods or tips or even brief discriptions on accidents legislation ect ect

Do you not think that the industry would move forward i know not everyone would read it

I think most people on here would admit they have learnt something however small so if you could reach the wider audience i,m sure it would benifit some

This need not be a big expensive thing compared to what some charge

and compared to the price of insurance, tax fuel ect pittence

How much does the average climber spend on new kit

how much is a saw

people keep talking about the price of qualifications

thats up to you most companies pay less if your not qualified

how much to train for other jobs ie rope access hgv outdoor persuits instructors

sorry for dronning on fire away

[skyhuck]

I do think that holding mandatory refresher sessions every 3-5 years would be a good thing so that any changes in working practice can be disseminated across the industry.

 

:confused1:Why should I be made to change the way I work, what else is going to change? the way a tree grows? or what it's made from?

 

Just be honest its to keep you guys in work:thumbdown:

 

Other industry's may need to refresh as the things they work on change, ie, plumbers working on new boilers etc, I don't see trees changing any time soon.

[DriveLink]

Following on from Big 'Ammer and Bob...

 

I think you have a point there Big 'Ammer - some sort of certification after logging a set number of hours; and that's exactly what could be achieved via CPD.

 

Bob raises some interesting points about being a member of a professional body - the dissemination of information, but the other things about having a trade body (and yes, I'm well aware there's the AA, ISA, RFS and so on) is that it's a way to regulate the industry as a whole. None of us want to see bad work done by those who haven't got a clue what they're doing and being a member of a recognised industry body would help the general public pick out a 'qualified' company to carry out work. The AA Approved Contractor is one example, perhaps it could be scaled back a bit for wider inclusion within the industry.

 

[skyhuck] - In my previous post, the point was made that refreshers did not have to be via a training provider - just some way of getting the latest thinking out to everyone to ensure safe working practices, that was all. Read the whole paragraph next time instead of taking just the bit out that suits your argument.